Morning brake problems..

[Thomass]

Good day to ya All,

since a few days, whenever i start the rig for a ride, the first few attempts, to use the brake, my rear wheel brakes, just block.
after a while riding and using the brakes, it is normal again.
I have removed The rear wheels and looked at the brake system, I really do not see any strange or wrongly things.
In this cold freezing weather, it is no fun do disassemble the breaks, without knowing the cause.
so i do ask you all for an advise or suggestion, where to look for this problem..

Thomass

[Mudderoy]

Good day to ya All,

since a few days, whenever i start the rig for a ride, the first few attempts, to use the brake, my rear wheel brakes, just block.
after a while riding and using the brakes, it is normal again.
I have removed The rear wheels and looked at the brake system, I really do not see any strange or wrongly things.
In this cold freezing weather, it is no fun do disassemble the breaks, without knowing the cause.
so i do ask you all for an advise or suggestion, where to look for this problem..

Thomass

Being in the Southern U.S. I don't know about freezing weather, but can water get trapped in the hydralic system? Could the heat generated by using the brakes to lock because of the expansion of the ice in the line?

Does the brake petal feel change when the back brakes are locked up?

[Thomass]

Being in the Southern U.S. I don't know about freezing weather, but can water get trapped in the hydralic system? Could the heat generated by using the brakes to lock because of the expansion of the ice in the line?
I do not think the freezing weather is the cause, it is just the first few break attempts, after parking for a while. even if it was parked in a heated garage it will do so.
It just, by little pedal pressure blocks the rear wheels, and on those slippery roads it will give a funny situation.
I have removed the wheels and the drums, and cleaned and inspected the brake system (comparing it with my girlfriends rig). even did bleed it (no air)
What i did noticed, that the linings are half way gone after 6 months...
If i use and release the handbrake while i drive, it wont occur by the next brake attempt.


Does the brake petal feel change when the back brakes are locked up?
The pedal doesn't feel any different and has the normal play...

Thomass

[Mudderoy]

I do not think the freezing weather is the cause, it is just the first few break attempts, after parking for a while. even if it was parked in a heated garage it will do so.
It just, by little pedal pressure blocks the rear wheels, and on those slippery roads it will give a funny situation.
I have removed the wheels and the drums, and cleaned and inspected the brake system (comparing it with my girlfriends rig). even did bleed it (no air)
What i did noticed, that the linings are half way gone after 6 months...
If i use and release the handbrake while i drive, it wont occur by the next brake attempt.


The pedal doesn't feel any different and has the normal play...

Thomass

Ahhhh heated garage, ok then that wouldn't be it. I wonder if you are having issue with the proportioning valve, and/or the master cylinder. Hopefully someone with much more experience with the brake system will chime in here soon.

[msmoorenburg]

abs or no abs?

[Thomass]

abs or no abs?

No, no ABS, did they fit ABS on A 1988/89 ???

[msmoorenburg]

i would look at the brake proportioning valve

[Thomass]

Ahhhh heated garage, ok then that wouldn't be it. I wonder if you are having issue with the proportioning valve, and/or the master cylinder. Hopefully someone with much more experience with the brake system will chime in here soon.

If you mean this thing:
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/RemdrukverdelerXJI.jpg
I've replaced this one 6 months ago, together with the brake shoe's.

Thom

[rugidone]

Try adjusting your rear brakes up a little if your haven't, I know here on our gm cars we have a problem like that when the rear brakes are slacked off and theres moisture in there.

[Thomass]

Being in the Southern U.S. I don't know about freezing weather, but can water get trapped in the hydralic system? Could the heat generated by using the brakes to lock because of the expansion of the ice in the line?
Does the brake petal feel change when the back brakes are locked up?

Just to make sure, and with the words from Mudderoy in my mind, I have this afternoon, refreshed the brake fluid, i filed up the master brake reservoir and with the use of a vacuum suction bleed all 4 wheels. ( I even removed and re-installed a other proportioning valve)
I drove the rig around the town (shopping with the Girl), the brakes appeared to be functioning normal.
Now i have to wait till the morning (it is 20:30H over here) and see if that was the solution (I'll hope)

[4.3LXJ]

Thomas

Is that block or lock? I realize English is not your first language. Maybe a little more information. Are the rear brakes not functioning or locking up when first traveling. What is happening to the brake pedal?

[Thomass]

Thomas

Is that block or lock? I realize English is not your first language. Maybe a little more information. Are the rear brakes not functioning or locking up when first traveling. What is happening to the brake pedal?

Thank you for seeing also the "language gap".

If I drive the rig after being parked for a while ( overnight) and use the brake slightly, than the rear wheels, stop turning (blocking) while the rig is still moving. If I release the pedal the wheels start turning again.
like if you sudden push the pedal to the bottom in a emergency stop
The brake pedal feels like normal, no hard pushing, nor the feeling that there is air in the system
After using the break a view times, it's acting as it suppose to act, breaking smoothly.
As i wrote in a message before, This afternoon I did chance the brake fluid, and also the proportioning valve. the last one was 6 months old.

I did order new braking shoes, to replace the ones I use now (they are half way gone)

Thom

[4.3LXJ]

Thomas

We would say the breaks are "locking up" This can be caused by a slight bit of moisture, usually brake fluid or oil. Once the brakes are warmed up, then the fluid evaporates and the brakes work normally. Check them for moisture before you go anywhere when you get a chance. I know it is cold and no fun. We recently had this happen on my son's mighty might (Project HUM WEE) I noticed his rear brakes were slightly moist and new seals on the axles. I thought that the previous owner had cleaned them. They locked up badly until I did a nice slow stop from speed. They perform normally now.

[4x4Dalton]

Mine do that every now and then when its really cold. I will leave the house and go to stop sign push brakes and get the loud squeak that would wake the dead. After 2 stops they ease up and are fine the rest of the day. But like I said it only happens to mine on really cold mornings.

[4.3LXJ]

In you r case, that is probably just hard break linings. They need to get warm before they work right. I have had some where you get into a panic stop and the warmer they got, the faster they stopped.

[Thomass]

Thomas

We would say the breaks are "locking up"
Thank you for the explanation between "Blocking and Locking".


This can be caused by a slight bit of moisture, usually brake fluid or oil. Once the brakes are warmed up, then the fluid evaporates and the brakes work normally. Check them for moisture before you go anywhere when you get a chance. I know it is cold and no fun. We recently had this happen on my son's mighty might (Project HUM WEE) I noticed his rear brakes were slightly moist and new seals on the axles. I thought that the previous owner had cleaned them. They locked up badly until I did a nice slow stop from speed. They perform normally now.
Moisture, Hmm, Oil... I did fix a few weeks ago an Axel bearing, Hmm
So it might be that I my self is the cause of this, because I did not work clean enough and left some residue somewhere in the brake system.:mad0090:
But then, would I really be this stupid to make this mistake on both the wheels ????

Thomass

[4.3LXJ]

It doesn't take much. One thing you can try to fix this if this is the problem is to drive for a mile or two with the parking brake on a little, just enough to drag. This will warm the brakes up enough to dry them out. If this is the problem, the moisture that would cause this is just a small amount. A large amount would make them not work much at all.

[LizardRunner]

lubricate your parking brake cables. You mentioned that if you pull it on and off the brakes seem to work right so that is most likely your problem a sticky emergency brake system.

[Thomass]

Goodmorning all,

Today I used the garage and the help of an friend,
When i lifted the rear wheel off the rig, he said that the brake drum is not the original.
on the one on the rig there are on the outer side of the drum a kind of tooth,(I do not know the English word for it) this suppose to be smooth???

Because I've been made a bit confused by him, I ask you all, this drum, how many inch should it be by a XJ 1988/1989.
and is this with or without the tooth ???

Thomass

[oderdene]

based on catalog, 88/89 Dana35 should have:
52001151 DRUM, Brake (Cast#82663-4) picture
(http://www.quadratec.com/products/56206%2005%2007.htm)http://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Images/6002/6002-lg.jpg

[4.3LXJ]

Thomas

Those are cooling fins, and yes most have them. However that in itself is not a reason to say they might be the wrong ones. There are two sizes available here in the States. One is 10", the most popular I think. I can't remember the other size.

[Thomass]

Thomas

Those are cooling fins, and yes most have them. However that in itself is not a reason to say they might be the wrong ones. There are two sizes available here in the States. One is 10", the most popular I think. I can't remember the other size.

Steve,
Yes i do know there are two sises, 10 and 9 inch. i also know that the 10 inch is wider than the 9 inch.

10 inch> http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/Rem20trommel20ribbbel.jpg 9 inch> http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/Rem20trommel20glad.jpg

But because this other person made me confused :stars: and the doubt i got at that moment, i just asked to make sure.

I do have the 10 inch drums on my rig, and after taking them of again to see if there was any moist or other, i did not noticed any strange things.

But then I remembered that i did about 6 months ago replaced the braking shoes, but not the retracting and hold-down springs in side.
Reading in the manuals, they advise to change those springs at the same time as the shoes. This because,due to the continuous heating and cooling cycle that the springs are subjected to. They lose their tension over a period of time and may allow the shoes to drag or to overturn (and block/lock the entire wheel)

So i ordered this afternoon a new spring set and hopefully i have them before the weekend.

I was planning to go to the mountains to ski again, but with those brakes in that condition, i might be skiing on the highway with the rig :crazy:

Thomass

[Mudderoy]

Steve,
Yes i do know there are two sises, 10 and 9 inch. i also know that the 10 inch is wider than the 9 inch.

10 inch> http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/Rem20trommel20ribbbel.jpg 9 inch> http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/Rem20trommel20glad.jpg

But because this other person made me confused :stars: and the doubt i got at that moment, i just asked to make sure.

I do have the 10 inch drums on my rig, and after taking them of again to see if there was any moist or other, i did not noticed any strange things.

But then I remembered that i did about 6 months ago replaced the braking shoes, but not the retracting and hold-down springs in side.
Reading in the manuals, they advise to change those springs at the same time as the shoes. This because,due to the continuous heating and cooling cycle that the springs are subjected to. They lose their tension over a period of time and may allow the shoes to drag or to overturn (and block/lock the entire wheel)

So i ordered this afternoon a new spring set and hopefully i have them before the weekend.

I was planning to go to the mountains to ski again, but with those brakes in that condition, i might be skiing on the highway with the rig :crazy:

Thomass

:redx: :redx: :redx:

[default83]

did you order just the springs?

i havent done drum brakes in like 10 years, but i thought you could order a whole hardware kit for them. might be the better way to go.

[Thomass]

did you order just the springs?.

I Already did change the shoes, so i ordered the spring-set separately.

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/4636778-s.jpg

But I'm still waiting on the postman :morningcoffee:

[xj4life2]

Just my 2 cents here but brake fluid by nature collects water and fluid over 6 mos old should be thrown out , in a sealed system it will still collect moisture and freeze in the lines if cold enough, however this would cause a no brake problem as the fluid would not move. The locking I would say would be caused by faulty return springs not allowing the shoes to return to a rest position.

[Thomass]

Just my 2 cents here but brake fluid by nature collects water and fluid over 6 mos old should be thrown out , in a sealed system it will still collect moisture and freeze in the lines if cold enough, however this would cause a no brake problem as the fluid would not move.
I know the brake fluid is hygroscopic, And in our small country Moiste, is a big issue. The brake oil was chanced (again) a few days ago. Just to eliminate any possible cause.


The locking I would say would be caused by faulty return springs not allowing the shoes to return to a rest position.

That is not it, While driving and using the brake, the rear brakes just brake and release, but the problem is that they brake at once, there is no in between. The front brakes acting normal.
Yesterday i did take the brakes apart again, cleaned all again. measured the pressure before the wheel cylinder, (they where nearly equal) assembled and adjusted the brakes again. Because i did not trust the adjusters, ( the treat was severe damaged) i did exchanged those.

Today i will compare the brake pressure with the rig of my girlfriend, see if that bring some light in this issue.

Wel I use the "I" therm, but due to a a minor accident :sad0147:, a friend will do the job while I just do nothing....

[Thomass]

Well, what I thought that is was blocking, is in fact a totally wrong diagnostic.

i have been checking all static, not on the roller-bench / break-bench.

After being in bed for the last two weeks i did check today on a break bench the difference between the rear left and rear right break. this was more than 65%. the left wheel is just breaking a little while the right wheel breakes a lot.
the blocking I hear is in fact that the right rear wheel is breaking and coming to an stop while the left wheel is just rolling on.

I did changed the break shoes,(8 weeks ago)and did adjust them.
statical the breakshoes move outwards when pressing the pedal and the clearance between shoe and drum is just as the right wheel. but when i drive it is not enough to break.
any suggestions....

[Mudderoy]

Well, what I thought that is was blocking, is in fact a totally wrong diagnostic.

i have been checking all static, not on the roller-bench / break-bench.

After being in bed for the last two weeks i did check today on a break bench the difference between the rear left and rear right break. this was more than 65%. the left wheel is just breaking a little while the right wheel breakes a lot.
the blocking I hear is in fact that the right rear wheel is breaking and coming to an stop while the left wheel is just rolling on.

I did changed the break shoes,(8 weeks ago)and did adjust them.
statical the breakshoes move outwards when pressing the pedal and the clearance between shoe and drum is just as the right wheel. but when i drive it is not enough to break.
any suggestions....

Wow I hope you figure this out. It sounds like my braking harder on the driver's side front than the passenger's side front. Since I changed pads, rotors, and calipers someone told me it must be the master cylinder.

[Thomass]

Wow I hope you figure this out. It sounds like my braking harder on the driver's side front than the passenger's side front. Since I changed pads, rotors, and calipers someone told me it must be the master cylinder.

In your situation, it might be the master, because left and right front brakes are fed separately from the master. In my situation it is fed by one brake line to the rear. so if it was the master, i would have the same problem left and right.
My front did the same, after investigation it was the connection between master and line. this was a bit damaged and the brake oil was unable to find its way without resistance. Clearing it with an drill solved my problem with the front brakes.
I did order today a new rear wheel brake cylinder, it might be that it is not capable to hold or deliver the right amount of pressure, due to an internal damage...

[Thomass]

We're now a few weeks later, and finally yesterday i found the reason why this irritating "breaking" happens.
Tourist Alpine season is on the end and I did travel a lot between The Netherlands and the Alps (not with my rig but with a coach:driving:). so I did not have the time to fix things.
However yesterday, I took the drums of (again) and I noticed on the edge of the drum an rim, and a counter profile in the brake lining. taking them to my lathe to remove this rim, I could not get it centred. By measuring the roundness I found the problem. The drum is not round at all but oval.
So today I ordered (again) new break shoes, new springs, new drums, and also new callipers (<<hmm I'm not sure if it is the right word)
I should also renew the break lines on the rear axle but still thinking if i should take the flexible or hard tubes??
Next week I do not work :smiley-gen165: than I can replace the stuff.
For now I bought myself a new rig (CJ7) for the time being, but i have to rush because I miss driving in my Cherokee:sad0147:

Thomass

[Mudderoy]

We're now a few weeks later, and finally yesterday i found the reason why this irritating "breaking" happens.
Tourist Alpine season is on the end and I did travel a lot between The Netherlands and the Alps (not with my rig but with a coach:driving:). so I did not have the time to fix things.
However yesterday, I took the drums of (again) and I noticed on the edge of the drum an rim, and a counter profile in the brake lining. taking them to my lathe to remove this rim, I could not get it centred. By measuring the roundness I found the problem. The drum is not round at all but oval.
So today I ordered (again) new break shoes, new springs, new drums, and also new callipers (<<hmm I'm not sure if it is the right word)
I should also renew the break lines on the rear axle but still thinking if i should take the flexible or hard tubes??
Next week I do not work :smiley-gen165: than I can replace the stuff.
For now I bought myself a new rig (CJ7) for the time being, but i have to rush because I miss driving in my Cherokee:sad0147:

Thomass

I was wondering what the issue was. You are very detailed in your debugging of problems. Do we get to see a picture of the CJ7?

[Thomass]

You are very detailed in your debugging of problems.
I should be using my camera more often, so i can share not only in word, but also in pictures.



Do we get to see a picture of the CJ7?

I didn't, post them here because it was not XJ related... But still.....

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/CJ7/DSCF3344.jpg
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/CJ7/DSCF3343.jpg
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/CJ7/DSCF3342.jpg
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/Thomass-Raphael/CJ7/DSCF3344.jpg

[finneys98xj]

Nice cj

[bluedragon436]

Nice looking CJ you have found there!!