View Full Version : Axle upgrade options...
XJ4IV
09-09-2010, 02:08 AM
I just found out this past weekend that you can get a D44 out of a Honda passport... I asked the guy if it was a weak setup like the Grand Cherokee aluminum ones and he said he thought the same thing prior and he researched it to find it was a perfectly good D44 and not weak in any way.
What I would like to know is what OTHER options are out there to put some strength into our axles... I wil most likely do the honda D44 but I REALLY wanna know about the front axle.
Im mostly looking for D44 strength as I dont need D60's and ALL I can come up with is old school wagoneer narrow width to match the honda D44
PLEASE anybody lend me some advice so I can hit up the JY in the next few weeks!!!
Thanks
Mudderoy
09-09-2010, 03:45 AM
I just found out this past weekend that you can get a D44 out of a Honda passport... I asked the guy if it was a weak setup like the Grand Cherokee aluminum ones and he said he thought the same thing prior and he researched it to find it was a perfectly good D44 and not weak in any way.
What I would like to know is what OTHER options are out there to put some strength into our axles... I wil most likely do the honda D44 but I REALLY wanna know about the front axle.
Im mostly looking for D44 strength as I dont need D60's and ALL I can come up with is old school wagoneer narrow width to match the honda D44
PLEASE anybody lend me some advice so I can hit up the JY in the next few weeks!!!
Thanks
I remember seeing on "Xtreme 4x4" that they took a rear axle and made it into a steerable axle. Ford 8.8 front and rear would be pretty cool...
drew91xj
09-09-2010, 06:26 AM
fullsize(f-150) 8.8 iirc is stronger then a 44 iv got one in the rear of mine and is only an inch narrower then my fullwidth d44
4.3LXJ
09-09-2010, 10:05 AM
D44 is a decent axle. They have been used for years. You can also source one out of an Isuzu. The nice thing is that if you are in the mood to part with some cash you can lock them with 35 spine axle shafts and have something as strong as a D60 with less weight and ground clearance. Personally though if I was looking for ultimate strength, I would go with the Ford 9" in front. Stamped steel axles are much easier to modify and work with than Dana axles. I will be doing the same type of thing with Toyota 8.25, also stronger than a 44 in the near future.
JeepinOutfitters
09-09-2010, 11:06 AM
Like 4.3 said, you can also source the same D44 rear axle out of an Isuzu Rodeo, since the Passport was just a rebadged Rodeo. They're a pretty decent axle, and I think the housing is stronger than the XJ D44 housing. Only issue is they're a 6x5.5" bolt pattern so you've got to get new rims and swap the front to match -- which is why the Waggy D44 front end is a good match: it's got the same 6x5.5" bolt pattern.
Couple of things to keep in mind with D44 fronts... the stock Waggy D44 axle shafts are actually weaker than stock D30 axle shafts, and D44s use the same u-joints as D30s, so in terms of "axle" strength, you're really not gaining much. Now the housing, ball joints, and just about everything else is bigger and stronger than on a D30, but you're still just as likely to snap a joint or axle shaft yoke on a D44 as you are on a D30. The Waggy D44 is also low pinion, though it's not a huge issue.
Short of going full-width or building a custom width axle housing yourself, or having one built for you, the Waggy D44 front is really the best and only option for a D44 front end (not counting Wrangler Rubicon D44 fronts). And like I said above, if you're doing an Isuzu/Honda D44 rear, the Waggy is even better because it's got a matching bolt pattern.
XJ4IV
09-09-2010, 01:41 PM
Hmmmmm Glad somebody told me about the lack of strength in the waggy 44's It seems to me that whenever a front axle fails its always the u-joint ... Ive seen only ONE ring gear fail on a 30 but thats not to say it doesnt happen...
Keep the input coming mostly for FRONT axle options, as far as the wheel change out thats no biggie I have a set of my old durango wheels that I can use or I can get a set of steelies at the JY
4.3LXJ
09-09-2010, 03:28 PM
A lot if this is dependent on what you want to spend. If you go with the Waggy front end, might as well grab the rear 44 to go with it. But here is the thing. As I mentioned with the rear 44, the same applies to the front. There are axles available for it that are stronger than the stock 60 axles and will set you back less than the front 60
i say screw the axles and the tires and make a hover craft :D
Mudderoy
09-09-2010, 10:21 PM
i say screw the axles and the tires and make a hover craft :D
Imperial walker!
http://www.wireless-earth.de/private/Models/images/StarWars_Imperial_Walker.jpg
^ lol now you're thinking, lets roll with that idea :D
5-Speed XJ
09-10-2010, 10:39 AM
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad260/5-SpeedXJ/88%20with%20410s%20%20time/000_0316.jpg
8.8 all the way
XJ4IV
09-10-2010, 02:29 PM
i say screw the axles and the tires and make a hover craft :D
but then I could never go "wheeling"
4.3LXJ
09-10-2010, 05:05 PM
but then I could never go "wheeling"
No you would go "Hovering"
lol
The 8.8 is a very good option. If you can find the xj D44 I think that would be fine with 35s. plus not as involved as a 8.8 install. Since im staying with 33s, i'm good with my 8.25.
panama red
09-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Get an 8.8 if you want to run your stock 30 or a rubi 44. My 89 xj had a d30 with lockrite, 8.8 welded, both with stock shafts, 4.88 gears, and 35-36" tires. I wheeled it very hard and never broke anything. You could swap in an 8.8 with 4.10 and limited slip with disc brakes from awesome auto for $29.99 + the cost of gas to dallas and back. then buy a front 4.10 r&p used for cheap. Also a good time to lockrite the front axle.
OR find a waggy with both front and rear 44s and build them up. My YJ had waggy 44s 5.89 gears lockrite front and welded rear with 38/14.50/15 TSLs. I broke 1 stub shaft after years of wheeling and that was my fault for not knowing when to take a strap.
The 8.8 route would be less than half the cost of the dana 44 builds and just about as strong. Perfect setup for 35-36" tires.
XJ4IV
09-12-2010, 03:35 PM
SOOOOOOO what your saying is that my MAIN weakness is the 35 and NOT the 30?
if thats the case then I dont mind swapping to a 8.25 or 8.8 since they are easy swap and then I could get the disc swap as well and keep the 5 on 4.5 rims... please tell me , ALSO I do have the ABS setup on my jeep which is said to ofer stronger u-joints right
JeepinOutfitters
09-12-2010, 03:55 PM
SOOOOOOO what your saying is that my MAIN weakness is the 35 and NOT the 30?
if thats the case then I dont mind swapping to a 8.25 or 8.8 since they are easy swap and then I could get the disc swap as well and keep the 5 on 4.5 rims... please tell me , ALSO I do have the ABS setup on my jeep which is said to ofer stronger u-joints right
Absolutely. Depending on your wheeling style and how often you wheel, a D30 is perfectly capable of running 35s and even 36s, locked, with low gears, without too much trouble. Our XJ and TJ both have D30s, lockers, low gears, and 35" tires with no issues. We even ran a set of beadlocked 36" SuperSwamper IROKs for a while. Heck, a buddy of mine ran a set of 38" narrow SuperSwampers on a locked D30 in his TJ without trouble for a couple of years. He had alloy shafts and all that and didn't break an abnormal amount.
If you've got ABS you should have the larger 297x u-joints, which are the same size as the joints used in a D44.
A late model 8.25" is certainly capable of handling 35s, as is a Ford 8.8". The Chrysler will be a direct bolt-in swap of course, while the 8.8" requires a tiny bit of welding, but like you said, the bonus of the 8.8" is you get disc brakes. You'll need an adapter for the driveshaft though since the 8.8" uses a pinion flange instead of a pinion yoke like a Jeep rear axle, but that's not a big issue.
XJ4IV
09-12-2010, 05:18 PM
well basically the only person that knows how I wheel on here is texj... I wheel pretty strong basically I do what I need to do to keep up with the million dollar buggies... Knock on wood I have never broken an axle but I have seen it occur SEVERAL times before and I really dont want that to happen to me on the trail. currently I have 3:55 gears but I gotta do what I can to get REALLY low gears for the extra power like 4:88 or even lower than that possibly! but I trust the guys who are first handed experienced so I will give it a whirl I suppose!
The 8.8 is a really good option. like was said the welding isnt too much. get an adapter for the pinion, and then get some spring perches. Bolt it all together, set your pinion angles and center the axle, then weld them on. you need to weld the center section of an 8.8 to the tubes, It is a known problem of the center section rotation on the tube, or however ever you want to put it.
There is a lot of info about the swap and the down side to the axle, which arent many.
like was said, the d30 is a good axle.
Question, for those in the know, what about a steering box brace, like a c-rock or something?
4.3LXJ
09-12-2010, 10:57 PM
Question, for those in the know, what about a steering box brace, like a c-rock or something?
One of the easiest things to do is just plate the side of the frame with your winch bumper plate. This not only will help stabilize the box and make steering a little more precise but keep the bolts from pulling through, the most common problem.
ok, cause i know on the older chevys this area would pull apart from the frame. So i wasnt sure if this same thing could happen with bigger tires on a cherokee.
4.3LXJ
09-12-2010, 11:07 PM
ok, cause i know on the older chevys this area would pull apart from the frame. So i wasnt sure if this same thing could happen with bigger tires on a cherokee.
Our problem is a little different than the Chevys. Their frame is a little weak there due to the design, so it flexes and gets stress cracks. Ours is a matter of strength of the metal. When you put large tires on, dropped pitman arms etc. and hit something, it will pull the bolts through the frame itself.
XJ4IV
09-12-2010, 11:26 PM
mine is DEFINETELY strong enough... Mine is plated with 1/4 inch plate on the "frame" rail
so would a bumper that has brackets that go back that far be the same idea?
4.3LXJ
09-13-2010, 10:18 PM
so would a bumper that has brackets that go back that far be the same idea?
Yes as long as it incorporates the steering box bolts
Ok I'll go check on that then. Cause im not sure if it does.
XJ4IV
09-14-2010, 12:28 PM
pretty sure yours does donovan...
XJ4IV
09-19-2010, 02:39 AM
soooo go check
XJ4IV
09-21-2010, 01:46 AM
Anything yet?
XJ4IV
09-21-2010, 02:09 AM
I was checkin out a friends dodge ram today cause he was having issues with his bearing on the front axle... I started to notice... the front axle on the ram is a D44 I think and the rear axle is a 9.25... is there a reason why THESE specific axles would not be a decent option? there are HUNDREDS of these things at the junkyards... I really dont care about how wide they are as long as they are either the same as the d30 and 35's or wider a little bit. I know I would have to strip the axles down almost 100 percent on the rear but in looking at the control arm mounts... the are in pretty much the same locations as the D30's ... can someone more educated than myself chime in and give me a few reason why nobody rants and raves about these options? like I said there would have to be at least ten of these combos in a good size junkyard.
http://www.jeepz.com/forum/attachments/cherokee-commander-wagoneer-liberty/1855d1230755238-differential-identification-differentials.jpg
4.3LXJ
09-21-2010, 09:58 AM
I haven't rally looked at these axles much. Does the front end have unit bearings or hubs?
XJ4IV
09-21-2010, 10:51 AM
not sure what a unit bearing is BUT the setup looks JUST like the d30...
Here is a pic http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTEHk-NSCTQcdsbjiOHOWnOsosHmcAbr4VlMtdFtnMZtRxoyCI&t=1&usg=__JDKxpP-muAMK9V1jW3RBDsbk8q0=
4.3LXJ
09-21-2010, 04:19 PM
That answers my question. The unit bearing is that combo bearing and flange. Here are my thoughts on this. If it were me, being old and old school about a lot of stuff, I would not want to "upgrade" to an axle with a unit bearing. It will have the same issues with larger tires our D30s have, namely that bearing is not designed to have lots of tire hanging out past the center of the bearing. It is too much leverage for them. I would much rather use the venerable Ford 9" with a matching D44 front. The 9", which is the half ton pickup version has large axles, heavy axle bearings and a front spindle and separate hub on two tapered roller bearings spaced about 3' apart. They are tough as nails and will take a beating like no unit bearing can. Plus if you lock them, you can use the free wheeling hubs on pavement and make the locker invisible.
the 9" is can be a really strong axle, if you get the big bearing version. You can put dana 60 outers on the front ones called a "609" from sunray engineering. Most people go to the 14 bolt found in most chevy's, but there are different versions of those. They can be had for like $100, some even have factory 4.56 gears. then you go with a Kingpin d60 for the front but then you are putting down some coin for one of them bad boys.
Cause the 1/2 ton dodge axles will be like full width, might as well go with 1 tons.
here is a link to some info on the 9.25
http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/axle/9_25specs.html
4.3LXJ
09-21-2010, 09:03 PM
Cause the 1/2 ton dodge axles will be like full width, might as well go with 1 tons.
A lot of people say that, but I think the chief value of ton axles is in rock crawling only. They can keep a center of gravity lower due to their weight and width. However, if you get into some ruts out in the mud, they turn into land anchors and hang up on everything. Then you are on the strap. If you use a 9" rear end, especially shaved on 35s, you almost have to go to a 44" tire to achieve the same ground clearance under the pumpkin. Also, the extra weight you gain, almost 700# between them doesn't help one bit when flotation is required. Another factor is that that extra weight requires higher spring rates, read rougher ride, to react properly on trails and not be off the ground all the time. Unless you are going to tires substantially over 37" the ton axles can be more of a liability than an asset.
XJ4IV
09-22-2010, 01:52 AM
welllll WHIZ in my cheerios!!! back to the drawing board!
XJ4IV
09-22-2010, 03:07 AM
sooooo I looked at a certain website thanks to Cantab... and I really dont wanna wheel until I get a new rear axle LOL
http://www.billhughes.com/dana35c/
cantab27
09-22-2010, 03:11 AM
glad i could finally help someone on here lol
panama red
09-22-2010, 11:42 AM
just drive your happy *** to awesome auto and buy a $30 8.8.
sooooo I looked at a certain website thanks to Cantab... and I really dont wanna wheel until I get a new rear axle LOL
http://www.billhughes.com/dana35c/
thats why they call it a turdy five
A lot of people say that, but I think the chief value of ton axles is in rock crawling only. They can keep a center of gravity lower due to their weight and width. However, if you get into some ruts out in the mud, they turn into land anchors and hang up on everything. Then you are on the strap. If you use a 9" rear end, especially shaved on 35s, you almost have to go to a 44" tire to achieve the same ground clearance under the pumpkin. Also, the extra weight you gain, almost 700# between them doesn't help one bit when flotation is required. Another factor is that that extra weight requires higher spring rates, read rougher ride, to react properly on trails and not be off the ground all the time. Unless you are going to tires substantially over 37" the ton axles can be more of a liability than an asset.
with beef comes weight. you are correct if you are just going out muddin then by all means get ya a 12 bolt and go at it. However, XJ4IV doesnt do that. So my response was for him. Me personally i wouldnt put anything over a 33/35" tire on an XJ. I'd buy a wrangler or something with a frame. (dont tell my XJ this though :D ) heck if money is no object go portals.
just drive your happy *** to awesome auto and buy a $30 8.8.
i like this idea :D
XJ4IV
09-22-2010, 09:51 PM
seriously next time Im out there I plan on bringing back those front and rear 44's from that wagoneer out at awesome... I tell people out here about awesome auto and they cant believe me... lucky for me the weather is cooling off a little bit to where I can crawl under a JY jeep and start wrenchin'
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