All this talk about lockers.. which axle first.

[nickyg]

All this talk about lockers has got me wanting one and planning my my "Next Thing" So my question is if I can only afford one at a time which axle do I do first? or does it matter? I have a dana 30 up front and a Chrysler 8.25

[denverd1]

heard some experienced guys say rear first, hands down. as you climb, more weight is on rear tires and they need the traction most, was his explanation. If you're doing an auto locker (non selectable) the only downside if you're in colder climate, the locked rear can get sketchy in turns on slicks stuff.

An auto locker can still be used in the front because when 4x4 is not engaged, its essentially an open diff.

If you're going selectable, I would still vote rear for reasons I mentioned above, but can still maintain good road manners on icy roads. my $.02

[abebehrmann]

I've read good reasons for either. This is from the Aussie Locker website though:


"If only installing one locker should I install in the front or rear?

This is dependent on your personal preference, the type of vehicle, existing diff types, and how you intend to use the vehicle.

We "Do Not" recommend the installation of a locker in the front of a vehicle that will be driven on icy highways in 4WD without manual hubs.

If a vehicle has an IFS (Independent Front Suspension) system then the front installation will result in a dramatic increase in 4WD capability. This is because all IFS vehicles have very limited suspension movement (wheel travel and articulation) resulting in easily lifted wheels and a loss of front traction. Installing a front locker will solve the deficiency.
If a vehicle has LSD (Limited Slip Differential) in the rear, then a front installation provides a significant improvement over the existing LSD and open diff set-up.
If a vehicle has constant 4WD then only a rear installation should be considered.
A front installation will usually yield the greatest improvement in off-road capability. This is due to the general requirement of increased in traction under hill climbing or rock crawling. Under full climbing conditions, due to the angle of the vehicle, the rear wheels carry a much greater weight (weight transfer) and therefore, the front carries less weight and tends to break traction very easily.

Once one front wheel starts to spin the other wheel stops turning and the whole front diff ceases to provide traction. At this point the load is transferred to the rear diff as if the vehicle was a 2WD and due to the increased load the rear wheels tend to spin and the vehicle stops. If you can stop the front wheel from spinning you have solved the traction problem. In addition to the traction performance a front installation does not introduce any changes in handling characteristics."

[denverd1]

If you have less weight in the front, isn't spinning inevitable? What happens when the rear spins because its open? 3 tires spin? I personally wouldn't want to rely on the front to pull me up over rocks or a ledge. I would rather have rear tires, with majority of weight on them, fully locked and pushing me up the hill.

Lockers are most valuable when opposite tires are off the ground. front-right and back left for example. In either case, the tires that are on the ground should give you the traction you need (even with only one axle locked) to get all 4 tires back on the ground and moving forward.

[Mudderoy]

I used to drive fast cars, so to me the locker should be in the rear! :D

I have two ARB lockers to install in mine. So I'll take care of it that way.

I was quite disappointed to learn that I didn't have a 4/2 wheel drive, but a 1/2 wheel drive. I have a limited slip in the C8.25 (according to the factory build sheet) so I guess I have a 1.5/2.5 wheel drive.

If you have full time 4x4 and you put a lunch box locker (auto locker) in the front you won't be able to use full time on the road. I have the NP242. With a manual locker I should be able to select locked or unlocked in full time 4x4 as needed.

I'm looking forward to having a true 4 wheel drive.

[denverd1]

I used to drive fast cars, so to me the locker should be in the rear! :D

I'm looking forward to having a true 4 wheel drive.

me too!! since mine's trail only, I'm thinking about going fully locked. Firemanray and I were chatting about this. After hanging with him and his crawler all day saturday, it seems like the only real way to wheel!! although I've heard of experienced wheelers only doing one (or none!) because they said 2 lockers makes them lazy. don't have to choose good lines or control throttle, just steer and push the skinny pedal.

[nickyg]

don't have to choose good lines or control throttle, just steer and push the skinny pedal.

I think I like the idea of this "Point and shoot" method

[Mudderoy]

me too!! since mine's trail only, I'm thinking about going fully locked. Firemanray and I were chatting about this. After hanging with him and his crawler all day saturday, it seems like the only real way to wheel!! although I've heard of experienced wheelers only doing one (or none!) because they said 2 lockers makes them lazy. don't have to choose good lines or control throttle, just steer and push the skinny pedal.

lol I've heard this too. That "lockers" makes it too easy. Hey if you want to spin, rev limit, and bounce then I think it's great! Me I just want to get thru, up, over and drive to and from work come Monday.

Surprised we don't see more "stock" rigs off road you know so it's more challenging?

Besides my build has always been about an emergency escape vehicle and not an off road toy.

[OrangeXJ]

For me the locker question is like the "whats a good axle" debate. For me it depends on what type of wheeling you do. On my xj I got a good deal on a E lock front locker so I got it. So I had a selectable locker in the front open diff in the rear. With that being said I was being pulled up the obsticle not pushed and it worked fine for me. Now with that being said with the front locked it's a bitch to steer. So I got a lunch box locker for the rear so I could unlock the front and still be locked in the rear.

Now my son's xj had a lunch box locker in the front and LSD rear. Same problem a bitch to steer when in 4wd.

Now to get back on the subject I would put the lunch box locker in the rear and only a selectable locker in the front.

Now for the BS about being locked front and rear makes it too easy " point and shoot" you better have a good line and respect the skinny pedal or you will end up on your side or top. I know I've been there.

[4.3LXJ]

I would like to add my 2 cents worth. Whether you add front or rear or both depends on the type of wheeling you. Many people that wheel on level ground and like to pay around on obstacles like the front first. That way they can get the front up for poser shots etc. But if you wheel on hills, rear first because that is where the majority of your traction is when climbing, downhill doesn't matter much.

Steering: On places with good traction, it doesn't matter, nor going up hill since the tires tend to slip a little anyway with a front locker. Downhill though, you will not be able to turn as tight even on fairly good traction. Mud and snow, you will tend to go straight since all tires are turning the same speed.

And point and shoot, I am amazed what it will do. Still finding its capabilities

[Firemanray]

I started with the rear axle on my Xj and I plan to do the front in the next month or so. I would start with the rear axle. I've seen soooo many times that both axles locked would have gotten us out of a jam (= no winching!). I'm concerned about the effects of an "auto locker" on the steering. My son likes to wheel as far as he can in 2wd before engaging 4wd so maybe the locker won't have to many ill effects. My crawler has a spool in the rear and a Detroit in the front, it's virtually unstoppable.

[abebehrmann]

Besides capability, the one consideration not yet mentioned is the strength of your axles. I have the Dana35 c-clip rear and have decided to not invest any money into it because I hope to swap to the 8.8 as soon as I have the time, money, and materials. This made the "which axle to lock first" question easy for me.

[slvmart]

Yes, the Lock Right (in the rear 8.25) can definitely be a touchy affair in snow and ice. Lots of torque steer, when on the throttle. Just the other day was driving on a 2 lane road that was slick as snot with frozen rain covered with equally freezing snow, especially as you drive over the snow and compress it. At one point I just blipped the throttle lightly and I was instantly heading for the opposite lane. But it sure comes in handy when plowing or driving in unplowed areas.

[Mudderoy]

Besides capability, the one consideration not yet mentioned is the strength of your axles. I have the Dana35 c-clip rear and have decided to not invest any money into it because I hope to swap to the 8.8 as soon as I have the time, money, and materials. This made the "which axle to lock first" question easy for me.

I thought about that to, but since Nicky said Dana 30 and C8.25 (I assumed 29 spline) he should be fine up to 33" tires locked.

[bigjim350]

There will always be a debate on which one to do first. I did the front first. The way I see it, you cant the the back over something unless the front gets up there first.

[nickyg]

There will always be a debate on which one to do first. I did the front first. The way I see it, you cant the the back over something unless the front gets up there first.

you assume most of us drive in forward.

[denverd1]

you assume most of us drive in forward.

lol!! Nickyg, you better stay away from drop brackets!

[cantab27]

Done the front first on barbi as that's the diff I blew first ... Ox locker in there and chromie axles .. Don't use it when climbing use it more in the bogs ... Will lock the rear 44 when it pops .. That's how I picked what one to do first ... Been in two years and v8 and right boot not killed it yet .. I do wheel like a nana ...

[autotech98]

Im following this avidly! I have a hp 30 up front and an 8.25 lsd in the rear and on snow its great till i hit the gas on a turn then blue can get a little squirrely..lol. Could just be my heavy foot though....

[nickyg]

I don't get much snow down here and most of my wheeling is burning thru a muddy constitution site on the weekends. I would like to get the most of my traction so I can make a clean get away.

[4.3LXJ]

I would like to get the most of my traction so I can make a clean get away.

Leaving the scene of the crime :D

[nickyg]

This is why I think I might need some lockers. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/09/56255867141144743a2e9a8270a772d0.jpg


Sent from my toaster using Tapatalk

[downsy]

Having owned Cherokees with one or the other at one point in time and both for a little bit I say lock the front first if it's a street driven XJ and you don't have snow to contend with. If I was in a snowy locale I'd go full selectable locker because of the dynamics of driving on snow/ice.

On my 00 I used to have I went locked in the rear first and it was ok but drove me nuts on the street mostly. For a short time I had a lockright up front as well and it was unstoppable off road even at mostly stock height. I eventually went back to open diff in the rear and was VERY happy with my DD/Trail Jeep.

When I got my 97 middle of last year the first mod I did was a front Lock Right and have wheeled it that way ever since and haven't really thought of adding a rear locker yet. Maybe an Detroit TruTrac one day but I'm in no hurry.

When climbing up hills your rear end has extra weight. Less chance of either wheel breaking loose. The front wheels seem to be better at pulling you over obstacles than the rear wheels at pushing you over them.

Think of it like a front wheel drive car. If you've ever driven a front wheel drive on slick snowy roads you see what the wheels pulling can do for you over the a rear wheel drive car. Think of it as trying to push a chain as opposed to pulling the chain along.

Again my suggestion is for front first from personal experince. If you live in a snowy area go selectable if not lunchbox will work fine as well. Get ready for noise and maybe some bangs at full lock when maneuvering in parking lots and what not. Not a big deal though.

My experience has also shown that steering isn't a big deal with it. If you're in a situation where it's hard to steer because your front wheels have that much traction then you can probably be in 2wd and be just fine.

[denverd1]

This is why I think I might need some lockers. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/09/56255867141144743a2e9a8270a772d0.jpg


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looks like a well maintained road to me!

[denverd1]

Having owned Cherokees with one or the other at one point in time and both for a little bit I say lock the front first if it's a street driven XJ and you don't have snow to contend with. If I was in a snowy locale I'd go full selectable locker because of the dynamics of driving on snow/ice.

On my 00 I used to have I went locked in the rear first and it was ok but drove me nuts on the street mostly. For a short time I had a lockright up front as well and it was unstoppable off road even at mostly stock height. I eventually went back to open diff in the rear and was VERY happy with my DD/Trail Jeep.

When I got my 97 middle of last year the first mod I did was a front Lock Right and have wheeled it that way ever since and haven't really thought of adding a rear locker yet. Maybe an Detroit TruTrac one day but I'm in no hurry.

When climbing up hills your rear end has extra weight. Less chance of either wheel breaking loose. The front wheels seem to be better at pulling you over obstacles than the rear wheels at pushing you over them.

Think of it like a front wheel drive car. If you've ever driven a front wheel drive on slick snowy roads you see what the wheels pulling can do for you over the a rear wheel drive car. Think of it as trying to push a chain as opposed to pulling the chain along.

Again my suggestion is for front first from personal experince. If you live in a snowy area go selectable if not lunchbox will work fine as well. Get ready for noise and maybe some bangs at full lock when maneuvering in parking lots and what not. Not a big deal though.

My experience has also shown that steering isn't a big deal with it. If you're in a situation where it's hard to steer because your front wheels have that much traction then you can probably be in 2wd and be just fine.

some good points, but one major issue I see. Front wheel drive cars stay on fairly level pavement. the "pushing a chain" analogy is funny. reminds me of the economic dynamic of "pushing a string". Do you need an umbrella in the sun?? maybe!! :spongebob:

If I may draw a conclusion, if you street drive it: front. If not: rear (or both!! :bacondance:)

[bigjim350]

I say we need real world testing. Im locked in the front, I need somebody with a locked rear to go wheeling with me. Lets see who does better.

[denverd1]

I say we need real world testing. Im locked in the front, I need somebody with a locked rear to go wheeling with me. Lets see who does better.

Firemanray is rear locked. Yall still meeting at TORR?

[graverobberjk]

most people I wheel with have decided to do the lunchbox locker up front, probably what I will go with in the very near future myself....unless I am advised to do otherwise by a higher power lol

[nickyg]

most people I wheel with have decided to do the lunchbox locker up front, probably what I will go with in the very near future myself....unless I am advised to do otherwise by a higher power lol

That's what I'm thinking too. I would love the OX locker. but that bag full of money hasn't fallen into my lawn yet.

I must admit the volvo LSD thing has me intrigued. I'm gonna keep my eyes open for one.

With a s-10 leaf spring and a volvo rear end would it still be considered a jeep?

[4.3LXJ]

With a s-10 leaf spring and a volvo rear end would it still be considered a jeep?

No, you would have a cholvo, or maybe a vevy :rolleye0012:

A few years back when Chevrolet and Toyota got together, the result was a Toyalet :D

[Firemanray]

I say we need real world testing. Im locked in the front, I need somebody with a locked rear to go wheeling with me. Lets see who does better.


Firemanray is rear locked. Yall still meeting at TORR?

This^^^^. I'm going to be locking both ends in the next 2 months. I'm interested to see how that works out.

[autotech98]

That's what I'm thinking too. I would love the OX locker. but that bag full of money hasn't fallen into my lawn yet.

I must admit the volvo LSD thing has me intrigued. I'm gonna keep my eyes open for one.

With a s-10 leaf spring and a volvo rear end would it still be considered a jeep?

im with you on that nicky think it would be good for light to modrate wheeling and the long commute in the snow.....

[denverd1]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/29/91a9d5a4dd05ba6603ad699fe1d2ad0a.jpg

Putting my rear locker in

[4.3LXJ]

:smiley-taunt002: OK, now I thanked you :P

[denverd1]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/5b4515f2c75f41cbca0c424dc62cd399.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/7572ce6dfa7e6df7526ada47ccc34140.jpg

[Brasscatz]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/5b4515f2c75f41cbca0c424dc62cd399.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/7572ce6dfa7e6df7526ada47ccc34140.jpg

Lookin' good Big D

[denverd1]

I'm happy with the install. Tore it all down one evening and put a few hours on it today. Had to run for a set of feelers then to 3 different stops for black RTV. And, in true denverd1 fashion, I basically did it twice cause I couldn't get the ring side spacer to seat down all the way. Caught it fairly early, although I already had both C clips in so that costs me some time. Then I didn't preload the pins in the cams so I had to do those one at a time after c clips were in the second time.

Performs well on road. I was impressed. I'm running 90 weight gear oil, but couldn't tell it was back there unless on sharp corners. Most corners I didn't even hear it clicking. Some run heavier oil to help with that but it doesn't bother me at all. I even tried to gas it through a corner to see if it would lock and chirp but nothing.

I would encourage anyone with a few c notes laying around to go for it. Very easy mod. And can really boost off road ability. Can't wait to wheel it.

She's loaded on the trailer and ready to explore Barnwell tomorrow. Looking forward to driving my more capable jeep.

[autotech98]

Freakin awesome denver. Hopefully ill get a chancr to pick one up soon

[nickyg]

Hey Denver, what kind/brand of locker did you go with?

[denverd1]

Nick I went with a lokka. I think was the old Aussie locker company, but not sure and who cares anyway. www.lokka.com

seriously thinking about doing the front soon. why not?

I've had this jeep for a few years and wish I would've done it sooner. I always thought I had to work my way up to the point where a locker was feasible. it's all bullshit. It was super fun running with the big boys on Saturday. Now I had to take it easy and pick my lines or I was going to break something or get yanked around all day. One guy had prolly 50K in his JK on 40s, Jakes XJ with 44s and locked 2 dr JK on 35s. And I kept up with them! locker made the difference. Most of those guys left around 3 so I ran with the sissy group. Spent more time spotting and waiting than I did wheeling, never again. Lock it lock it lock it! auction off your neighbors kid if you have to! but lock it! you won't regret it!

[cantab27]

have posted before.....little barbie with front locker in smokes this little bump.......on 33s and not true muds .....other trucks on 35s/ 37s except white tj.....is lock front and rear but hey he stalled it ....

bout 3rd minute in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyvdPqP9D70

[denverd1]

Wayne, thats awesome!! Barbie was scootin right through that stuff!! did you like the the team format? How come we don't have those here? need to change that