Starting/Charging Problem (The DREADED Code 41)

[JeepFreak]

Alright so a few weeks ago (more like 2-3 months considering my baby has been sitting in the parking stall of my apartment for a month), Red decided she wasn't going to start occasionally and then suddenly, not at all, Code 41 clicks on and the one time I get it started was in Neutral and she kinda slumps over and dies slowly (I shut it off before any damage could be done once I realized that even the spark plugs didn't seem to have enough juice to continue the ignition sequence). She kinda revved up for a bit and sounded ok then in a second or two she slowed waaaaaaaaay down in RPM's and sounded almost like she was going to die. This went on for about 10 seconds before I shut her down.

Current Status:

Red is NonOp/WIP (work in progress). I have removed the old starter and replaced it (Damn O'reilley's one...again...it was free so shut it lol). The alternator was the original 1994 model year generator so to be safe I removed it and am going to replace it with the new one tomorrow. I cleaned all of the grounds I could find including the ECM ground, alternator grounds, A/C compressor ground, engine ground, negative (-) battery terminal ground, Voltage Regulator grounds, and any other ground I saw bolted to her. Now quick thing about the alternator/VR grounds, when I removed the bolts from the engine for the first time since Red was built at the factory, the bolts for the ground were EXTREMELY corroded with white phosphorous material (I'm assuming it was white phosphorous). I cleaned them off the best I could and even wire brushed them, and coated the hell out of them with the recommended amount of Dielectric Spark Plug/Alternator bolt/Starter bolt grease. Stuck those back in. Now I haven't been able to test it yet since I had to cut off my serpentine belt since I had damaged it in the removal and it was of no use anyway.

THE QUESTION:

Does this sound like the alternator or the VR? The starter was an extra since it had already gone bad (the mini-flywheel did not eject from the main flywheel in the bellhousing as quick as it should and a bearing was shot in it). As I have said, I cannot test it with the engine running because I have no serpentine belt.

RECAP:

Alternator was 21 years old and still OEM from the factory.
It also had magnetized EVERY bolt and odd, metallic shavings (that were also magnetized) were stuck to the bolts all over the alternator. There were no other shavings I could see on the frame anywhere around where the alternator sits.
When I had the alternator tested before I got the new one, Autozone bench tested it and under zero load it was juicing 14.75v compared to 13.74v under load into town of about 15-17 miles (at freeway speeds 55MPH+) 3-4 months ago. Autozone in town tested it while the car was idling at rest (800-900RPM) in their parking lot back then.
The Voltage Regulator is factory OEM Mopar and Jeep does NOT supply replacements past the year 2001 because Mopar does not go back that far.

SIDE NOTES:

Code 41 came up just a few days before this major catastrophe started.

Definition as per Chilton Jeep Wagoneer/Comanche/Cherokee 1984-01 Repair Manual: Code 41--Charging System Circuit--output driver stage for generator field does not respond properly to the voltage regulator control signal

The ignition switch may also be bad or the ingition lock cylinder as when I kick it over to start with the Gearshift lever in Park (P) the key is hard to turn and gets 'caught' on something but if I push it hard enough it goes into Start/Run but the car doesn't even try to engage the starter. If I go to the starter relay and make a direct connection with a metal wire with the key in ACC and Gearshift lever in Neutral (N) the starter goes to turn over and the car will start. Any other way, Red refuses to start. I am assuming that most of these systems just went out at the same time so any and all help would be appreciated.

[4.3LXJ]

You might not have enough voltage at the battery due to a weak alternator. I think the starter is just from sitting

[JeepFreak]

I checked the battery when I took it out 2 days ago (it's sitting on my living room floor) and the voltage was at 12.59v which if I'm thinking right, is enough to start the car granted the alternator is in working order, right?

[4.3LXJ]

Yes

[cantab27]

only starting in neutral....... maybe nss

[JeepFreak]

Well I thought that maybe the switch was messed up but then again, wouldn't the switch be WORKING if I can do it in Neutral while sometimes getting it to work in Park??? It's an extremely intermittent problem. I'm going to replace the ignition switch soon, I have the part. It's the matter of pulling off the steering wheel without ample means to get to the store and buy/rent the puller. I'm hopeful at this point that it was just corroded grounds and a faulty alternator that were the culprit.

[Cheromaniac]

only starting in neutral....... maybe nss

When the neutral safety switch goes, the engine won't even crank over when the tranny shifter is in Park.

[4.3LXJ]

Well I thought that maybe the switch was messed up but then again, wouldn't the switch be WORKING if I can do it in Neutral while sometimes getting it to work in Park??? It's an extremely intermittent problem. I'm going to replace the ignition switch soon, I have the part. It's the matter of pulling off the steering wheel without ample means to get to the store and buy/rent the puller. I'm hopeful at this point that it was just corroded grounds and a faulty alternator that were the culprit.

The starter switch itself is located on the bottom of the column under the dash on the right hand side. I don't think that is your problem

[JeepFreak]

Do any of you have a picture of what it should look like under the column? I was led to believe that my ignition switch was directly underneath the key lock cylinder on the column. If this is not the case, I would really rather not open the column to figure that out. Unfortunately for me, all Jeeps are transistorized. This means that if the VR is not in the Alternator (it's not...) then it is in my ECU/PCM. This also means that if the VR IS the culprit....I have to get a new onboard computer....

[4.3LXJ]

I don't have a pic of it, but it is under there and is actuated by a rod from the key cylinder

[JeepFreak]

I don't have a pic of it, but it is under there and is actuated by a rod from the key cylinder

So then the ignition switch is under the key lock cylinder? I really don't want to have to open the steering wheel again if I don't have to. That was a pain the first time. And as for my VR, if it is indeed the ECU/PCM, where would I get a new one and how much would we be talking?

[XjJeepacorn]

Do any of you have a picture of what it should look like under the column? I was led to believe that my ignition switch was directly underneath the key lock cylinder on the column. If this is not the case, I would really rather not open the column to figure that out. Unfortunately for me, all Jeeps are transistorized. This means that if the VR is not in the Alternator (it's not...) then it is in my ECU/PCM. This also means that if the VR IS the culprit....I have to get a new onboard computer....


Yeah I have some, I can show you how I hot wired mine when mine went so you don't have to pop the hood every time you wanna start it. :) I ended up just replacing the whole steering column. I think you're going to need tamper proof torex things, and to actually get the key cylinder and the ignition switch piece off you'll need something to press it off, looks like it was pressed on! I think that's why I decided to replace the whole column, got it and a pile of other stuff for 50 bucks at the jy on free parts day :) I'll look for the pics at home when I get there!

[JeepFreak]

Yeah I have some, I can show you how I hot wired mine when mine went so you don't have to pop the hood every time you wanna start it. :) I ended up just replacing the whole steering column. I think you're going to need tamper proof torex things, and to actually get the key cylinder and the ignition switch piece off you'll need something to press it off, looks like it was pressed on! I think that's why I decided to replace the whole column, got it and a pile of other stuff for 50 bucks at the jy on free parts day :) I'll look for the pics at home when I get there!

Thanks! That will be really helpful! As for replacing the column, unfortunately my XJ is a 94 so in order to get INTO the column, I have to remove the steering wheel. OF COURSE if I had a 1995, it's just 2 Torx screws and it comes off....why Chrysler...WHY?!

[XjJeepacorn]

Lol!! I got home later then I expected yesterday! to take
Mine off I have to take it off I had to pull the wheel too.. It's not that hard but make sure you unplug the battery first if you have an Air bag.

[XjJeepacorn]

Hey Freak!!

Check this out you just need a wire to go across!! And you can start it up!

http://www.jeepacornforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71

[JeepFreak]

Hey Freak!!

Check this out you just need a wire to go across!! And you can start it up!

http://www.jeepacornforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71

Yeah I kinda....messed that up when I did it the first time. I think I fried something. I jumped the voltage across the feed to the lead ground and it fired up the car through the starter RELAY. That's when I realized the whole problem with the alternator, starter and potentially the VR/ECU/PCM. It didn't want to stay charged the next time I got it started in Neutral. Just need a serpentine belt and to put the alternator back in and I can fire it up and see if it starts charging again.

[XjJeepacorn]

I did that too before I stripped the wires under the steering column. I didn't fry anything, I drove like that for almost a month lol until I got a new used column

[JeepFreak]

Does anyone happen to have a pic of what the ignition switch itself looks like? I have an idea but I am getting two conflicting images of what it looks like. The part I got from Autozone looks like a long rectangular set of connections while in the Chilton guide, it looks like it's a rounded part with a flat side under the key lock cylinder. Which one is correct???

[XjJeepacorn]

http://m.cherokeeforum.com/showthread.php?t=64944

[XjJeepacorn]

:)!!!

[JeepFreak]

Omg I hate Autozone so damn much lol they gave me something that looks NOTHING like that AND I know what that is and where it is in my steering column and tbh it is way easier to get to than whatever it was in the ignition lock cylinder. Guess I gotta go down there tomorrow and pick up whatever it is lol

[XjJeepacorn]

Oh I remembered why while I was in the shower last night!!! Part of the casing for the lock cylinder was broken and that's why I replaced the whole steering column! What it's all attached to is pressed on there real good!

[Brasscatz]

Oh I remembered why while I was in the shower last night!!! Part of the casing for the lock cylinder was broken and that's why I replaced the whole steering column! What it's all attached to is pressed on there real good!

Gonna need a write-up with pictures on this shower thing :p

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 because my microwave couldn't do it

[JeepFreak]

So I got my ignition switch out (after some pretty cramped arms from the horribly small work space even after removing the dash) and guess what? IT. IS. FRIED. Somebody (not sure who but most likely a novice so probably my uncle) decided it would be a great idea to splice into the ground and replace it with another same gauge wire and use rubber cement to attach it to the ignition switch so now it's literally glued to itself so I can't get it off. I snapped some pics so take a look.

4485

If you look close enough you can see that inside the 'brown' ground wire, it is completely fried. That's what the white stuff is.
4486

You can also see the wires in the yellow crimp device. It's almost as if whoever did it crimped them way to hard and broke 4 holes in the crimp sheathe itself. There's 4 rectangular holes in the sheathe so the wire is exposed.
4487

The brown 'ground' wire goes to the other end of that purple one towards the top right.
4488

What should have been an easy fix has got me stalled to a standstill. I am unsure of how to proceed now as the connectors in the switch itself are most likely charred beyond belief and useless and I can't get them out to replace them. Any suggestions guys???? :bang:

[XjJeepacorn]

Gonna need a write-up with pictures on this shower thing :p

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 because my microwave couldn't do it


I do some of my best thinking in the shower!!

[XjJeepacorn]

So I got my ignition switch out (after some pretty cramped arms from the horribly small work space even after removing the dash) and guess what? IT. IS. FRIED. Somebody (not sure who but most likely a novice so probably my uncle) decided it would be a great idea to splice into the ground and replace it with another same gauge wire and use rubber cement to attach it to the ignition switch so now it's literally glued to itself so I can't get it off. I snapped some pics so take a look.



4485



If you look close enough you can see that inside the 'brown' ground wire, it is completely fried. That's what the white stuff is.

4486



You can also see the wires in the yellow crimp device. It's almost as if whoever did it crimped them way to hard and broke 4 holes in the crimp sheathe itself. There's 4 rectangular holes in the sheathe so the wire is exposed.

4487



The brown 'ground' wire goes to the other end of that purple one towards the top right.

4488



What should have been an easy fix has got me stalled to a standstill. I am unsure of how to proceed now as the connectors in the switch itself are most likely charred beyond belief and useless and I can't get them out to replace them. Any suggestions guys???? :bang:


Go to the junk yard and get a new harness solder it in there and tape it up real good :)

[JeepFreak]

Go to the junk yard and get a new harness solder it in there and tape it up real good :)

Got my new harnesses for it (for some reason the blue and black connector holders are separate pieces so I had to get both) and I'm going to replace the entire wiring tomorrow up to the end of the purple wire. Not bad for $5.94 for both the connector holders and wiring from the same model and year of my Jeep. Thanks, Blue. You gave part of your organs and life for Red. RIP Blue Jeep at PnP.

[XJ Wheeler]

I do some of my best thinking in the shower!!

Never knew that. Guys are different, its the can for us.

Einstein... Had irritable bowel syndrome and 15 toilets in his one bedroom condo. One smart dude.

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

[Mudderoy]

Gonna need a write-up with pictures on this shower thing :p

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 because my microwave couldn't do it

So what you're saying here, in public, is you need to know how to take a shower? :smiley-taunt002:

[XjJeepacorn]

Never knew that. Guys are different, its the can for us.

Einstein... Had irritable bowel syndrome and 15 toilets in his one bedroom condo. One smart dude.

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.


Nothing like lookin up eyes closed and helping the water flow down your hair, letting it run down your face... Having the figurative light bulb go on!!! Ohh jeep freak, I must tell you !!! Lol!!

[XjJeepacorn]

Got my new harnesses for it (for some reason the blue and black connector holders are separate pieces so I had to get both) and I'm going to replace the entire wiring tomorrow up to the end of the purple wire. Not bad for $5.94 for both the connector holders and wiring from the same model and year of my Jeep. Thanks, Blue. You gave part of your organs and life for Red. RIP Blue Jeep at PnP.


If I were you I'd save the one you don't need just incase the other one goes at some point, or at least save the old one!

[JeepFreak]

If I were you I'd save the one you don't need just incase the other one goes at some point, or at least save the old one!

It was impossible to salvage the old ones in case you couldn't figure that out by the picture lol the novice mechanic who "fixed" it had completely sealed it with gasket caulking. There was nothing I could do except snap the connectors to remove the old wires so I could reuse the good, intact, metal connections. Other than that, the wire harness connection holders were useless. It's all good. I'll get to it tomorrow since it took me too long to walk 7 miles round trip to my mechanic and back to have him help me. Besides, I have school in an hour and a half lol

[XjJeepacorn]

No, you said that one part was good and you had to buy both I was just saying keep the good part

[JeepFreak]

No, you said that one part was good and you had to buy both I was just saying keep the good part

Oh yeah well most of it is actually NOT salvageable now that I took it out. It's unfortunate but I have to pretty much replace the whole thing lol whoever did it better never tell me because I would kick them in the shins :flameon:

[XjJeepacorn]

Lol!!!

[XjJeepacorn]

By the sounds of it you'll probably run into more Mickey Mouse bs along the way!