shUt the fronT dOOr! My bRain is $&#%@!

[Infidel Edition]

OK. So I somehow added 2" in my brain to my front lift.
...I know, guys are always adding a couple inches...
I have a 2.5" lift (according to the tape measure) and only 1" in rear. But it is noticeable visually ~ and sitting in it.
So I had finally set aside enough (aside from fixing everything else) to get new springs in back... and in my brain thought the front was 4.5"... and ordered a RubEx 4.5" soft ride spring set (and the shocks and brake line...)

now I need to lift the front to be closer to the back.
My question is thus, IF the front is a full 2.5" lift (I believe ProComp springs, LCA,track bar, shocks...), can I just add a 1.5" or 2" spacer and be good?

My logic being everything is adjusted for a 2.5" lift/length. AND if I were adding a 2" lift, Pretty much everything at stock length should be good to go. So adding a 2" to what I have would be more like adding 2" to stock...

I know, as always, I need to slow myself down and get'A' done before I start 'B', but I get excited and ahead of myself.
~ I ordered a 2" spacer with a gift cert., but want to vet everything else I'll need to install them and run "safely" till I can pick up a longer track bar and ...

[Infidel Edition]

So in reading... what about
- Bronco II sway bar for 3" ~ 4"
- Exploder rear sway bar links for 3" ~ 4"

...either combined or a 1 or the other to get to the 4.5" - 5" target?

and the ZJ pitman arm should net an extra 1" of drop..

[bigjim350]

Are your control arms stock? 4.5" of lift will be alot on stock arms. It will move your axle back in your wheel opening.

[07Negative]

I would just pick up a set of RE coils for the front. If you can not flip the coin for a long arm kit. Maybe consider drop brackets instead. It'll ride much nicer! If not, and you stick with short arms. At least get adjustable control arms. From experience w my 4.5" lift. Do the steering last. That includes your track bar. 4.5" of lift merits doing an OTK, cross over, or high steer steering. By having the geometry correct. You'll eliminate potential issues such as bump steer, DW, etc. it will require welding, cutting off brackets, measuring for drag link, tie rod, & track bar.
I'm sure others will say you don't have to do all mess. But I personally think you'll get the best results this way. It obviously helps to know how to weld or have a kick butt friend that's willing to do it.
Throw out the rear sway bar. You probably won't notice it missing. The front will need extensions or quick disconnects. Longer brake lines both front & rear.

[Infidel Edition]

Are your control arms stock? 4.5" of lift will be alot on stock arms. It will move your axle back in your wheel opening.

The LCA are part of the lift the PO did. Beefy looking / but for a 2.5" lift.
The uppers are stock.
Track Bar is also after market ~ and I would assume for the 2.5" as the axle is centered to the 1/16th"

[Infidel Edition]

I would just pick up a set of RE coils for the front. If you can not flip the coin for a long arm kit. Maybe consider drop brackets instead. It'll ride much nicer! If not, and you stick with short arms. At least get adjustable control arms. From experience w my 4.5" lift. Do the steering last. That includes your track bar. 4.5" of lift merits doing an OTK, cross over, or high steer steering. By having the geometry correct. You'll eliminate potential issues such as bump steer, DW, etc. it will require welding, cutting off brackets, measuring for drag link, tie rod, & track bar.
I'm sure others will say you don't have to do all mess. But I personally think you'll get the best results this way. It obviously helps to know how to weld or have a kick butt friend that's willing to do it.
Throw out the rear sway bar. You probably won't notice it missing. The front will need extensions or quick disconnects. Longer brake lines both front & rear.

I can get the drop brackets for cheap... and if that'd get me by for 6 months (no real off roading - just snow and ice), I'd go that route.
Then when I get back from :ass:crackastan, I could upgrade with an adjustable track bar and the proper LCA ~ and adjustable UCA's.

What about the pitman arm? I thought I saw that the ZJ is a little longer and has a 1" additional drop over the XJ?

[XJ Wheeler]

In dealing with my 4.5" i haven't done any steering mods yet and i'll admit its not the nicest feel but its not a necessity to upgrade. As i get into more hardcore wheeling i'll upgrade for that reason.

Since you already have extended sway bar links i would see how they are after you go higher.

Also, having aftermarket lower links will probably work out for just 2" more. I think your money is better spend on some adjustable upper arms.

And the adjustable track bar you have on there is probably already made to accommodate a 4.5". Again, see after the added height.

Stock brake lines?

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

[Infidel Edition]

And the adjustable track bar you have on there is probably already made to accommodate a 4.5". Again, see after the added height.

Stock brake lines?

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

Track bar is aftermarket, but not adjustable~ thinking of getting an adjustable down the road.
And I think the brark lines a long enough. Might do the cheat and reposition the screw point.

[XJ Wheeler]

Track bar is aftermarket, but not adjustable~ thinking of getting an adjustable down the road.
And I think the brark lines a long enough. Might do the cheat and reposition the screw point.

Are you sure its not? It looks like it is it this pic, i think.

3940

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

[Infidel Edition]

Are you sure its not? It looks like it is it this pic, i think.

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

Ya know what... I just eye-balled it from the underside up.
...and a friend gave it a quick look.

But from that pic. it sure does look like it has an adjustable end.
Good eye.
~ can I borrow 'em? Cause I'm apparently = blind :crazy:

[XjJeepacorn]

Sorry but I diss agree with throwing away the sway bar many say you don need it but when you're doing like 80 mph on the highway and have to swerve out of the way of on coming morons or what ever they will save you from
Rolling. I noticed a big difference with out them,
You can't corner as well. You have to slow it down. I'd suggest getting quick discos they aren't that expensive or just make your own I've seen many good DIY ones don't screw with safety. I cut out my rear sway bar but the front there is a big difference

[XjJeepacorn]

I don't know what is with my phone and making stupid paragraphs!

[Infidel Edition]

Sorry but I diss agree with throwing away the sway bar many say you don need it but when you're doing like 80 mph on the highway and have to swerve out of the way of on coming morons or what ever they will save you from
Rolling. I noticed a big difference with out them,
You can't corner as well. You have to slow it down. I'd suggest getting quick discos they aren't that expensive or just make your own I've seen many good DIY ones don't screw with safety. I cut out my rear sway bar but the front there is a big difference

I was definitely planning on keeping the front. Maybe even working on something for the rear as well...
Since this is my primary ride to drill weekends ~ on the other side of the pass full of twisty mountain roads.
... with a side of snow.

I'm going to pull the sway bar out of an Exploder ~ some people seem to think it works with a 4" lift. But I'm not tracking if they mean "front" or "rear".
guessing front.
...maybe both.

.........will post results as I figure them out

[Infidel Edition]

I don't know what is with my phone and making stupid paragraphs!

My phone likes to change my words into ??? things I generally wouldn't say in public:spongebob:

[XjJeepacorn]

I'm at 5 and I have my stock one it still works fine, I've never read anything that's says its a good idea to change it for different lifts. How ever the zj sway bar is supposed to be an up grade. Also, they make sway bar links for different lifts it makes sense they would need to be extended to accommodate more lift. Don't forget about extending your break lines and your diff breathers. Are you going to be replacing your stock controller arms? Someone all ready mentioned that I see. The higher up you go the more wheel base you loose and the adjustables will push it out for you. I have bds uppers and the bottom ones are mystery ones lol my friend sold them to me and I noticed I managed to bend it on the threading a little. The uppers I got from bds cost me like 300 ish donno of you get a discount for buying both sets or not but if you are going to spend that kind of money I'd just say screw it and dish out a little extra... Save them penny's for long arms.. maybe if you are lucky you're find a good set used

[Infidel Edition]

I'm at 5 and I have my stock one it still works fine, I've never read anything that's says its a good idea to change it for different lifts. How ever the zj sway bar is supposed to be an up grade. Also, they make sway bar links for different lifts it makes sense they would need to be extended to accommodate more lift. Don't forget about extending your break lines and your diff breathers. Are you going to be replacing your stock controller arms? Someone all ready mentioned that I see. The higher up you go the more wheel base you loose and the adjustables will push it out for you. I have bds uppers and the bottom ones are mystery ones lol my friend sold them to me and I noticed I managed to bend it on the threading a little. The uppers I got from bds cost me like 300 ish donno of you get a discount for buying both sets or not but if you are going to spend that kind of money I'd just say screw it and dish out a little extra... Save them penny's for long arms.. maybe if you are lucky you're find a good set used

The V8 ZJ has the beefier tierods. Which should be adjustable to compensate for lifts upto maybe 5".
I'm not sure the sway bar is beefier though.
And I think the Ford Exp. has longer / beefier sway bar links. Unless it's a little longer and angled down a little further.

My thought on adding a longer sway bar link is that it would its leverage strength as the links get longer and longer... and when you couple that with disconnect adapters, you're just asking for it to fail at some point.
~ for 65 MPH driving on mountain roads.

I'll hit the junkyard this weekend and try to find one / pull it and hold it up to an XJ to see. Maybe take a couple pic's too.

[4.3LXJ]

On those sway bars, there are four different diameters. 26mm for 84 - 86. 27mm for 4.0 XJs 28mm for 4.7 and 5.2 ZJs and 29mm for 5.9L ZJ

[Infidel Edition]

On those sway bars, there are four different diameters. 26mm for 84 - 86. 27mm for 4.0 XJs 28mm for 4.7 and 5.2 ZJs and 29mm for 5.9L ZJ

So I want to find a 5.9L ZJ to pull the sway bar and tierods?
mmmm beef

......have you seen / heard spec's on the Bronco ii sway bar or Exploder?

[4.3LXJ]

No, I have not

[XJ Wheeler]

So I want to find a 5.9L ZJ to pull the sway bar and tierods?
mmmm beef

......have you seen / heard spec's on the Bronco ii sway bar or Exploder?

Good luck on finding a 5.9 zj. They only made them in '98 and were pretty limited production.

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

[XjJeepacorn]

Learn something new every day :)

[Infidel Edition]

Good luck on finding a 5.9 zj. They only made them in '98 and were pretty limited production.

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

quick search for the local yards = 4 hits on 98 zj's. :rolleye0012::pray:
tierods = $17
swaybar = $26

....though I'm going to try to finish off my current projects before I start the next phase of parts swapping. So worst case, what I've got will have to get me though for now.
** my primary concern was to ID the MUST HAVE parts to add 2" to the lift kit already in place (other than the spacer).

[NW99XJ]

The tie rod and the sway bar have nothing to do with one another.
The factory sway bar on an XJ is more than capable of keeping the body roll down no mater what lift you have.
The most important thing is the end links of the sway bar.
They have to be long enough to keep the geometry roughly the same.....
meaning the angle of the ends of the bar have to be NEAR what they were when the vehicle was at the factory ride height.
The "Sweet Spot" for this is as close to parallel with the ground as possible, but there is a good deal of tolerance when it comes to this...
it's usually about 20 degrees either way (up or down)
Here's a diagram to illustrate what I'm talking about....
http://www.4x4xplor.com/images/JKS-QD/jks10b.gif


I have made my own disconnects, and have even wheeled with them on (mild trails, and just left them on, because I didnt want to bother disconnecting them, and didnt need the additional articulation anyways.)
...they held up just fine.
Even thru thousands of miles of daily driving, and dealing with idiots on the road (sudden maneuvers, harsh braking, etc) they have held up fine.
There really is no need to "upgrade" the swaybar, you wont really notice any difference if you do anyways.
Getting yourself a good set of urethane swaybar bushings (the part that connects/holds the swaybar to the body) will give you the most noticeable difference.
As to your steering.... A tierod off of a V8 ZJ IS a step in the right direction....
This picture gives you a good idea of the level of strength you get from stepping up from one to the next.
Here is all three phases of MY steering build's rod ends, side by side.
From Left to Right..... Stock XJ TRE on a Rough Country Tie Rod / ZJ Tie Rod End on ZJ Tie Rod / GM 1-Ton TRE all by itself.
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h328/jbchill1/IMG_2441.jpg

Now onto your lift.... I had ran a 5" lift on those very same control arms you have for a long time.
I daily drove like that as well as wheeled the piss out of it.... they did just fine.
YES, the ride quality was a little bit harsh, but it was reasonable.
You'll do fine on those for time being.
Your springs and spacers should do fine as well to get you to the ride height you're looking for.
And until you buy/fab/install some swaybar disconnects, merely relocating your brake line mounts in the front, and straightening the hard-lines will do just fine as well.
http://www.lunghd.com/Tech_Articles/Suspension_Steering_Axles_and_Brakes/Budget_Lift/Lift03b_Relocate_Brakelines.jpg

Once you get into the realm of mass articulation with swaybar disconnects, you'll want to go with some extended brake lines.
For the rear, you're still going to want to address the cable for the E-brake..... you MAY be able to get away with just adjusting it all the way out.
Otherwise, I'd say you'd prob be good going with that allthread / coupler method I was talking about.

Eventually you'll want to get yourself some adjustable upper and lower control arms, and drop brackets, or step into the world of long arm set ups.

You'll still want to keep a Slip Yoke Eliminator kit on your short list, as once you go up in lift, driveline vibrations will most likely become an issue.
You may be able to get away with using a front driveshaft as a replacement once you do, but if a rear axle swap is still on your radar, then keep in mind that may have to be modified or replaced once you do.

Hope some of this helps man.
As always, you're more than welcome to come by and talk about any of this in person, or gimme a call, and I'll do my best to walk you thru things over the phone.

[Infidel Edition]

The tie rod and the sway bar have nothing to do with one another.


I knew that... was just thinking out loud about front end upgrades.
~ more of longer linkage than the entire sway bar. But noticed on 1 junkyard list or another, the other sway bars referenced for lifts.
And though I'd have to do something to address the additional 2" lift.

** so according to the diagram, the goal is to have the side of the swaybar where it connects to the top of the linkage parallel with the ground?



Getting yourself a good set of urethane swaybar bushings


Good call there. Will need to verify all the bushings and such as I dig and pull things apart.



And until you buy/fab/install some swaybar disconnects, merely relocating your brake line mounts in the front, and straightening the hard-lines will do just fine as well.


.....and now you've lost me? I ordered the longer brake lines (wrangler as posts suggest).
but the brake line to swaybar is where you lost me.

I'm not a heavy wheeler type. More of snow and ice on the pass ~ with the capability to hit some off-road when needed. So I'd probably never use the disconnects.

[XjJeepacorn]

I broke both my Lower controller arms right off this season and I wasn't even wheeling what I would consider the piss out of it, some tough obstacles yes lol! Basically I should have upgraded the lcr Brackets too.

The upper had been reinforced on the passenger side and it also had been trussed. I over looked that and had 2 gobble back to town 2 days in a row to get patched up and back on the trail.

My Jeep is my daily driver too. With out upgrading the controller arms it's not so bad if your not wheeling it I wouldn't think although not 100 % sure I just wouldn't try it when I've been told by other jeep people I respect to just do the upgrade!

The higher you lift your jeep the more wheel base you are going to loose. Having adjustable controller arms will push it out so you have your stock wheel base back when adjusted properly. Not only that you'll get more flex out of them.

[XjJeepacorn]

I could for instance walk over Niagara Falls on a tight rope and make it across and say nothing bad happened! Lol you know what I mean?

[XjJeepacorn]

Did I say that the zj ones are supposed to be an upgrade? The lcrs?? I meant to! Although you'll probably wanna replace the bushings in them if you do get them from the jy

[Infidel Edition]

OK so the end that is over the axle... is + 5° toward the back...
but if it's from the piviot point (the bushing spot) its way bigger of an angle.
3957


also noticed that the PO went CraZZy with the lock tight on the but there!
3958

[4.3LXJ]

That is a heim. It will take more of an angle

[Infidel Edition]

That is a heim. It will take more of an angle

so a 2" drop'll be fine?
...or a set of longer links would be better?

set of links would run what ~ $30 / $40 ballpark

[XjJeepacorn]

As long as your track bar is parallel with the drag like you'll be ok if you are trying to adjust bleepin jeep on you tube has a good vid to show you how to adjust your track bar properly

[Infidel Edition]

As long as your track bar is parallel with the drag like you'll be ok if you are trying to adjust bleepin jeep on you tube has a good vid to show you how to adjust your track bar properly

I do love the BleepinJeep videos.

[NW99XJ]

** so according to the diagram, the goal is to have the side of the swaybar where it connects to the top of the linkage parallel with the ground?
Roughly, yes.... again, there is a pretty good tolerance on this, AND it's not super critical, just "better" if you stay within that range.


.....and now you've lost me? I ordered the longer brake lines (wrangler as posts suggest).
but the brake line to swaybar is where you lost me.
So once you disconnect the swaybar, the axle is allowed to move more freely throughout its range of motion... essentially, you instantly gain much more articulation. With this increase in articulation, the one end of the axle that is drooping more than "normal" is going to pull that caliper farther away from the body....where the brake line is mounted... So...the more you flex, the more brake line you're going to need.


I'm not a heavy wheeler type. More of snow and ice on the pass ~ with the capability to hit some off-road when needed. So I'd probably never use the disconnects.
Then most likely you wont have to do much to the brake lines, ... a little relocation of the mounting tab, and the straightening of the hard line (like shown in the one pic I posted earlier) and you may be ok....if you've already ordered extended brake lines, then you're a step ahead.

And again, alot of this stuff isn't "do or die".... you can "get away with it" on some things for quite a while as you take care of other issues, etc.
Things like sway bar angles, and brake line lengths aren't going to make your Jeep undriveable, the worst that is going to happen is you will be limited on the level of terrain you can conquer.

[4.3LXJ]

Links you can make, but some of them can get expensive. Might talk to some of your buddies at a motor pool to extend the ones you have

[Infidel Edition]

I happened to "need to" drive out to the other side of town today to sign some paperwork and decided to stop by the local pick and pull to get a measure on the exploder~
The rear sway bar linkage is the same as what I have, but 2" longer...

I also happened to come across these
3961

3962
~ it was on a '93 grand, and the shocks were all Skyjacker...
Those lower control arms look beefy
...........and would run $25 ea.
Not sure how much of a lift was in that jeep ~ but those springs look good too
and would run $20 ea.

[Infidel Edition]

Only bright red coil springs I found for a grand cherokee were for a Rancho 2" lift (given the shock length was only a little over stock for max and the bolt to bolt on the LCA was 16.5").
So, if the stock coils give you a 1" to 1.5" lift, these would potentially be a ??
........3" to 5"?

the grand didn't have tires ~ and was supported under the frame, so the axle is just hanging.

[4.3LXJ]

No guesses on that one

[Infidel Edition]

No guesses on that one

I already have a 2.5" coil lift installed and picked up the 2" spacer (from Amazon via the site link) to get me to the 4.5" goal.
...gonna grab those LCA's though. Mine are fixed length.

I was just pondering grabbing those springs in lue of the spring + spacer combo.
But at this point, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to gamble on the coils as it would be another $40...

[4.3LXJ]

They look kinda stiff anyway

[XjJeepacorn]

Only bright red coil springs I found for a grand cherokee were for a Rancho 2" lift (given the shock length was only a little over stock for max and the bolt to bolt on the LCA was 16.5").
So, if the stock coils give you a 1" to 1.5" lift, these would potentially be a ??
........3" to 5"?

the grand didn't have tires ~ and was supported under the frame, so the axle is just hanging.

Mine are yellow, I painted them that way ;)

[XjJeepacorn]

What you can do is disconnect your links remove your tires and jack up one side of your jeep and see how long your coils are and then go measure the ones at the junk yard :) they look like you're almost ready to come out :) take the lcrs if they are cheap! I would

[NW99XJ]

I woulda grabbed ALL of that!....if nothing else, you'll be able to easily recoup your costs on Craigslist.... if not come out ahead!
But yea, thats a great score on the Adjustable LCA's!!!

[XjJeepacorn]

Shouldn't we be worried about our back doors?

[Infidel Edition]

Shouldn't we be worried about our back doors?

:spank:
What about our back door?
:ass:

Oh. You mean on the XJ.

Wait. What?

[XjJeepacorn]

Lmao! ;)

[07Negative]

I say ditch the rear sway bar. If you're doing 80MPH. That's kinda on your end b/c I'm not aware of a single freeway that has that limit. I've seen 75. But with 33's with 3.55 ring & pinion. It would take me from Cali to El Paso to get up to 75. I kept my front. But I also drive slow.

[XjJeepacorn]

Yeah but everyone drives like 120 on the highways here that's just what I am used to speed limit it's around 60 mph which here is 100km/hI mostly drive 120 everywhere I don't like driving my jeep faster then that

[XjJeepacorn]

Rear bar I never noticed a difference front I noticed a difference

[07Negative]

Gotcha! My original statement was aimed on rear sway bar. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. I'm too chick poo to go without a front. Now if I can just figure out the parts for what Currie has coined as the "Anti Rock" sway bar. I know you can build it by piecing together stuff from Summit Racing catalog. I'm either being lazy due to the lack of importance at the moment or I'm a doh doh. It could go either way.

[Infidel Edition]

I say ditch the rear sway bar. If you're doing 80MPH. That's kinda on your end b/c I'm not aware of a single freeway that has that limit. I've seen 75. But with 33's with 3.55 ring & pinion. It would take me from Cali to El Paso to get up to 75. I kept my front. But I also drive slow.

Not sure which highway (80?)... but running east/west in northern NV was posted 80 or 85 MPH ~ something like that.
That's where I was doing 90+ for 3 hours straight and didn't have a heat issue till I slowed down to less than 5 MPH. Suddenly, it was too hot :rolleye0012:

[4.3LXJ]

I 10 is 80 or better out in the desert