Rebuilding the front lift.....

[Dredwolf]

Since I did not get to go wheeling yesterday, I insisted on working on the XJ today.:D

Preparing to install the RE 4.5" front coils, got the "frame" rails up on my big jackstands, dropped one side to full droop and pulled the wheel. This lift looks like a coil plus spacer lift, no idea whose control arms. There are some Rusty's decals on this XJ, but that is all the details.

At full droop on drivers side (sway bars disconnected), axle has moved back until front drive shaft is almost fully compressed, so on an upstroke, the coil will rub hard against the bumpstop...not sure I can use the extended bumpstops, even trimmed. And I have some rust holes in the lower bracket.

I saw the measurement chart on the control arm length. I had mentioned getting a set of arms from Andy for strength, but how do I know if I need to go ahead and order now to prevent issues?

And should I go poly both ends, or johnny joint/poly? The idea is for everything to work well, but try to stay in budget.

[DETOURS]

Poly or factory style bushing on 1 end....(I like the rubber personally)
Once 'proper' lower control arms are installed, front axle should be pushed forward back to it's correct postion, reducing 'rub'......adjustable uppers can be used for best results and fine tuning as well.

[Dredwolf]

Fair enough, I'll put these coils in and remove the spacers, and see where that puts me before rebuilding the rear.

http://i.minus.com/iuwZh7KIzVwVt.JPG

Thankfully, since I have the basic "Black XJ", color-matching is easy if I get new arms.

[Dredwolf]

Poly or factory style bushing on 1 end....(I like the rubber personally)
Once 'proper' lower control arms are installed, front axle should be pushed forward back to it's correct postion, reducing 'rub'......adjustable uppers can be used for best results and fine tuning as well.

Same deal on uppers, johnny joint on one end is worth it?

[DETOURS]

Really.....unless you're out to be a rock star, poly or rubber is acceptable on both ends, Johnny is a nice guy....but he can be noisey......You put up with this on something designed for more 'on trail' use....

Again, I'm a fan of the factory style bushing, they bend and twist quiet well.

If one sits down and does the geometry, the average guy, won't twist a front axle more than 20 degrees, the factory rubber can handle that easy. Now again, to be clear.....if you're out to be a 'rock star....you'll want to upgrade to Johnny...

[Dredwolf]

Makes sense.

I know there are limitations to the short arm design, and I know it would be simpler to buy a whole kit and just install that, or convert to long arms, but I believe this can be done with planning and analysis. This is my first XJ, and I want to learn. Like my old built CJ, I am convinced I can build this XJ to be the "can drive it 3-4 hours to the trail head" rig I want taking my time and thinking it through, and some "well, that did not work...".

Of course, after all that work and $$$, I'll probably inherit the perfect tow rig and trailer from some distant foreign relation.;)

[Dredwolf]

Since I now have a shock bracket to repair, does it make sense to trim the bracket where it contacts the control arm at full droop?

http://i.minus.com/iAHixhGwXqOgf.JPG

[4.3LXJ]

If you are going to get control arms anyway, you should get one that is off set on the bushing can or has a bend in it to accommodate that much droop.

[Dredwolf]

That is the plan, have some on the way.

Now to rebuild the shock mount, and source some #9177 9000 series shocks, Rough Country is phasing them out.

And buy some blasting sand and clean up that axle.

[Dredwolf]

Working on the front end again today...:confused:

Passenger side does not droop as much as the driver side, BEFORE I change out the passenger old coil spring and spacer. I know I need to beef the steering on this XJ, but the only v-8 ZJ I have found in the junkyards have been wrecked in the front.

I am looking at the joints on the drag link and track bar, and they don't look to be in full bind...but I am no expert on this. With out a picture, this may help. I did not have to use a coil spring compressor on the driver's side to remove the old coil spring, but I am on the passenger side, and compress it as much as I compressed the new RE spring to install on the driver side.

The Rusty's shocks were too short, but both front shocks are pulled.

What am I missing? We need a Steve "hotline"....

[4.3LXJ]

Ring, Ring,Ring. This is the Steve Hotline, how may I direct your call? :D

Droop will be affected by the upper and lower links. Look where the links attach on the axle ends and frame ends on the lower links and frame end on the upper links. Typically the arms will hit the brackets at full droop and restrict droop

[Dredwolf]

Droop will be affected by the upper and lower links. Look where the links attach on the axle ends and frame ends on the lower links and frame end on the upper links. Typically the arms will hit the brackets at full droop and restrict droop

That's the odd part, the lower arm on the driver side was hitting the bracket at full droop, but the passenger side is not. None of the tie rod ends look like they are in full bind, and it has an aftermarket track bar. I have not pulled the track bar yet, it's attached to the axle with an allen head bolt, and the PO rounded out the allen.

I am going to need to pre-treat with PBBlaster, and some heat, and a big pair of ViceGrips to remove it, or weld on a nut.

[Dredwolf]

Had few hours of daylight after doing farm chores, got back on the '99 front end.

Realized today that the lower shock mount is boxed from the factory, I can only guess trapped mud caused the rust shown. Not sure how to rebuild it at this point.

To get the passenger side coil in, I had to remove the track bar and the lower link from the axle. I am going to replace with Andy's stuff, but I was trying to get the XJ drivable for this week.

No success there, sun was going down, and my son and I could not get the track bar lined up at the frame to reconnect it. Did get both RE coils in though, and installed one of the bumpstops..trimmed it about an inch, but it still hits the coil during droop.

[4.3LXJ]

Use some ratchet straps to pull it over. Is it going to be long enough for those coils. You may need a longer one

[Dredwolf]

Use some ratchet straps to pull it over. Is it going to be long enough for those coils. You may need a longer one

They are RE 4.5" coils...the track bar has a "MOOG" boot on it up at the frame bracket, and is attached to the axle with a Allen head bolt. Stock or aftermarket, you think?

I received the Ironman Andy's trackbar this Friday, but was trying to quickly put the XJ back in "drivable" mode to drive it some this week, and get visual of the XJ with the new coils.

At this point, I have Andy's uppers and lowers, and the track bar to install when I re-gear. I am going to order the V-8 ZJ components from RockAuto, the AA and AZ here don't stock the '98 V-8 ZJ steering parts.

[4.3LXJ]

Somebody has been into it at the very least. Best to get Andy's stuff on there. I installed one for a friend. It went well. plenty of adjustment

[Dredwolf]

Somebody has been into it at the very least. Best to get Andy's stuff on there. I installed one for a friend. It went well. plenty of adjustment

Any special procedure making sure the trackbar is adjusted correctly for the lift?

Figured if I am going to do that, I am adding the Clevite Andy's lowers and the new uppers.

[4.3LXJ]

You can install the track bar last. Some just let the Jeep settle on the springs and then adjust the track bar to that. A purist like me, which is what I did, was use a contractors level or long piece of wood and measure each side in to the tire.

[Dredwolf]

You can install the track bar last. Some just let the Jeep settle on the springs and then adjust the track bar to that. A purist like me, which is what I did, was use a contractors level or long piece of wood and measure each side in to the tire.

Measure in to the tire? Maybe measure from outside if tire to same point on body or frame?

Like the idea of getting a real baseline.

[4.3LXJ]

I was trying to find a pic for ya, but it is on another guys photobucket account. Put a stick or something straight against the tire top and bottom. then measure from the stick to the body. Just make it the same on both sides. Then adjust the drag link so the steering wheel is straight

[Dredwolf]

Good grief this trackbar from Andy is beefy.....:shocker:

You have to be careful even handling it, its like picking up a sledgehammer, you start looking around for something to hit with it.:D

I contented myself with dropping it on some boxes I wanted to crush for recycling anyway.:rolleye0012:

[4.3LXJ]

Good grief this trackbar from Andy is beefy.....:shocker:

You have to be careful even handling it, its like picking up a sledgehammer, you start looking around for something to hit with it.:D

I contented myself with dropping it on some boxes I wanted to crush for recycling anyway.:rolleye0012:

Uh oh, now you voided the warranty :rolleye0012:

[Dredwolf]

Uh oh, now you voided the warranty :rolleye0012:

okay, I PLACED it on some cardboard boxes I wanted to flatten, and gravity, mass and velocity helped....:rolleye0012:

It was packaged well....but I bet a lot of things shipped near it did not fare so well...:shocker:

[4.3LXJ]

Hefting it around qualifies as pumping iron :D

[XJ Wheeler]

okay, I PLACED it on some cardboard boxes I wanted to flatten, and gravity, mass and velocity helped....:rolleye0012:

It was packaged well....but I bet a lot of things shipped near it did not fare so well...:shocker:

That must be why my skid plate showed up looking like it had been beaten by a trackbar. :p

[Dredwolf]

That must be why my skid plate showed up looking like it had been beaten by a trackbar. :p

Having worked the "Sort" at UPS, I guarantee this thing caused a ruckus coming through.....and some banged knees and fingers....and boxes.

[Dredwolf]

So I had a few hours on Sunday to at least get the XJ where I could drive it again....maybe....:rolleye0012:

Got the new shocks, new sway-bar disconnects, and RE coils installed....but both lower coil clip bolts stripped out their respective holes, and the driver side pulls back too had for me to install the bump stop, even trimmed.

Yes, I know the passenger sway bar link is a little stressed out...

http://i.minus.com/ibcjKzaEpcQCkc.JPG

I need to get Andy's uppers, lowers and track bar installed installed, but I need a full day dedicated to it, in the event of running into trouble. And I need to buy a wrench to fit the adjusters....:rolleye0012:

[4.3LXJ]

Pipe wrench

[Dredwolf]

Pipe wrench

Good idea, I have several, may try that if I can't find a big adjustable...can't scuff up the paint before I even get to wheel with them...

Trying to figure out what to do on the coil retainer clips....the lower coil bucket and shock mount is boxed in on the bottom, so that causes a problem...and there is not much metal there anyway to drill and tap for a larger bolt.:confused:

Anybody else had to deal with the lower coil spring retainer clip bolts stripping out? Too much rust did mine in...:bang:

[XJ Wheeler]

That must be what happened on my brothers '90, because his are welded on.

[Dredwolf]

Trying to figure out how to solve to problem without over complicating it. Not enough steel thickness there for a helicoil or keensert....

[4.3LXJ]

Grind the old nut off if you can and use a nut and bolt. The easier option is to drill a new hole and use that one

[Dredwolf]

Grind the old nut off if you can and use a nut and bolt. The easier option is to drill a new hole and use that one

Not really a nut there, just a threaded hole...closest to the coil...when I took this pic, I did not realize that rusted out section was boxed, and rusted from the inside...:bang: Which made repairing that even harder...now this happened. The passenger side one has a little rust, but nothing terrible.

http://i.minus.com/iAHixhGwXqOgf.JPG

I can try to drill and tap, or maybe drill and TIG in a nut...

[XJ Wheeler]

If you can't get to the underside, how about welding a nut to the top.

[Dredwolf]

So I dug back into this thing today....

ZJ tie rod conversion....:D

http://i.minus.com/iA3jmK8JIdSKQ.JPG

removed the aftermarket LCA's...:bang:

http://i.minus.com/iojfLv7d0D05i.JPG

Iron Man Andy's rubber-bushed LCA's back in...adjusted to 16.5" per the chart....:rolleye0012:

http://i.minus.com/i88GYhFvCLff.JPG

A quick test drive around the farm flexed it out to "settle" the new parts, and then I went over my "test terrace" to check everything...

The passenger tire is rubbing the sway bar HARD at hard left turn...:eek:

I have not installed Andy's uppers yet, or the track bar (had to find my 1/2" drill first). The tire is contacting hard enough that I don't see how the dis-connect brackets are going to be able to hold the arm....:confused:

What do I need to check, or is this to be expected?

[4.3LXJ]

Got your track bar installed yet?

[Dredwolf]

Got your track bar installed yet?

Steve, I was hoping you would comment.

I don't have it installed yet, I had to admonish a member of the household to return Dad's tools when borrowed and left at the barn...so by the time the 1/2" drill was found, I had already finished up the LCA's and was trying to start on the leaf spring swap...

I will try to do the trackbar and upper control arms this coming weekend, I was thinking about gusseting the passenger-side UCA mount too.

[4.3LXJ]

I suspect your axle is shifted too far to the drive side

[Dredwolf]

I suspect your axle is shifted too far to the drive side

I was hoping that is the case also, so I will try to get that track bar installed this coming weekend.

When I did the LCA's, I ended up having to ratchet strap the passenger side forward, and the driver side back....is that just the nature of the XJ front suspension, or another indicator that I need to do something about that track bar?

[4.3LXJ]

Axle position will affect that as it moves from side to side. But also the front housing is purposely put together with a 1.5° difference in castor so it will pull to the right a little.

[Dredwolf]

Axle position will affect that as it moves from side to side. But also the front housing is purposely put together with a 1.5° difference in castor so it will pull to the right a little.

Thanks for the details. I'll try to use some of the tips mentioned earlier to adjust the new trackbar properly to re-center the axle.

I got home this evening and looked at the OEM trackbar mount, and the double-shear mount conversion Andy includes....

I have no doubt on the strength of Andy's conversion, but I have done enough mod and fab work to know that when you eliminate a weak point, that stress moves elsewhere.

Any notable of failures on that upper track bar mount, while I am reinforcing the front end?

[4.3LXJ]

My stocker failed, but Andy's won't The new weakest point will be the stock track bar mount on the axel. I ripped one those off too, but most don't. Just make sure it is not rusted out

[Dredwolf]

My stocker failed, but Andy's won't The new weakest point will be the stock track bar mount on the axel. I ripped one those off too, but most don't. Just make sure it is not rusted out

I am finding rust in weird spots on this XJ, I am looking at some options over at http://www.eastwood.com/ for coatings. Because of the farm, I have used rust conversion coatings with a lot of success (as long as they are real conversion coatings http://www.permatex.com/products/product-categories/specialized-maintenance-repair/body-interior-trim/permatex-rust-treatment-detail).

I am planning on putting in a gusset on the passenger side upper control arm mount, I'll make a point of inspecting that axle track bar mount while I am at it.

I think I had mentioned that it appeared someone had changed out the OEM bolt and replaced with an Allen bolt. What metric grade is supposed to be there, 8.8 or 10.9?

[4.3LXJ]

Not sure on metric grades. But grade 5 is tough enough. Consider what it is attached to.

If you go to standard bolts they will fit a little better. The Dana axle is standard stuff anyway. The metrics tend to fit a little loose most of the time

[Dredwolf]

Not sure on metric grades. But grade 5 is tough enough. Consider what it is attached to.

If you go to standard bolts they will fit a little better. The Dana axle is standard stuff anyway. The metrics tend to fit a little loose most of the time

Makes sense, I have been told Grade 5 and Metric 8.8 are almost identical in tensile strength, and I think the same can be said for Grade 8 and 10.9 (not an engineer, don't play one on TV, did not stay at a Holiday Inn, is this right?):rolleyes:

My wife says you'd think I was planning on driving the XJ to South America, with as much effort I am putting towards it.:P

Hey, that would be a cool trip...:D

[4.3LXJ]

Sounds like a fun idea. Pick me up when you swing by

[Dredwolf]

Sounds like a fun idea. Pick me up when you swing by

An XJ version of the Camel Trophy!! :D

Works for me!

[4.3LXJ]

Why not. I have a nice big gas tank. I will fill her up and take off

[Dredwolf]

FINALLY installed the Iron Man Andy's track-bar and bracket...I had one of his track bars with just the poly bushings, but when he introduced the bracket, I just had to have one.

No pictures of mine yet (no camera today), but I will take some.

From the Ironman Andy site:

http://www.ironman4x4fab.com/Products/images/STD-TBB-F.jpg


This thing is seriously stout...I centered the axle the best I could with a tape measure. I have Andy's lower arms already installed, I need to add the upper arms now, but I have the issue with the front bump stops, they are already into the spring. These are RE 4.5" lift coils, like the rear leaf packs.

I adjusted the lowers per the reference chart for the lift, what am I doing wrong? Or will the uppers help?

[reddragon72]

If you add in the uppers then you can adjust the whole axle forward.

From what I have read you need to adjust the uppers to center the wheel like stock and then roll them back 1/2 inch. This is to stop the front tire from driving up into the front of your quarter panel. This will also help the bump stops. Some people drill a hole in the mount and put a small bolt or screw in there to stop em from fall out from the rubbing on the spring.

Once that is done adjust your pinion angle totally straight. Now from there you adjust your caster to rid of wobbles.

[Dredwolf]

I have a set of Andy's uppers I will install this weekend (forgot I had them :rolleyes:), and then see how the geometry looks.

I am hoping I can keep the build momentum long enough to finish the suspension and get the XJ back drivable until its time to tear into the axles.:pray:

[Dredwolf]

I have a set of Andy's uppers I will install this weekend (forgot I had them :rolleyes:), and then see how the geometry looks.


Murphy strikes again..:bang:

Went to soak the upper control arm bolts with PB Blaster tonight in preparation for this weekend's plans to install the Andy's upper arms.....and clearly saw that the upper control arm bushings on the axle were shot.:mad:

No sense in installing the Andy's arms unless the bushings are changed, which means I need to gusset the passenger side mount, which means I might as well fab up some skid plates for the lower control arm mounts.....

:smiley-angry021:

Sigh. Whats the best choice for the upper bushings, axle side? The Iron Man Andy's uppers have Johnny Joints up at the body.

[4.3LXJ]

You can use either rubber or poly. You need a little give in the system to account for flexing

[Dredwolf]

You can use either rubber or poly. You need a little give in the system to account for flexing

Does Moog have a "Problem solver" part number for the uppers?

Don't need to do the lowers, that is handled by the "Devastator-class" lowers with the big rubber bushings by Iron Man Andy.

[4.3LXJ]

Don't know

[Dredwolf]

Don't know

:shocker:

;)

[Dredwolf]

Found some info on using WJ bushings in the XJ's, can anybody validate?

[Dredwolf]

More on this....looks like a Moog K3166 is the upper bushings for a WJ, which should work in place of the Moog K3128's, but they have a solid inner sleeve instead of the "piece of steel shaped into a tube" deal.

Going to local big chain parts store to compare and see...

[Dredwolf]

Ended up with both the K3166 and the K3128's, I'll try to post some detailed pictures tomorrow.

The K3128's are the "exact match" for the '99 XK upper control arm bushings at the axle, the k3166's are the control arm bushings for a WJ.

The inner sleeve on the K3128's is basically steel rolled into a tube with an obvious seam, and the tube is dimpled one each end to center the bolt.

The K3166's is much thicker sleeve, still with a seam, but machined noticeably better with tighter tolerances.

[Dredwolf]

Okay, took some pics today, since the rain killed the XJ wrenching efforts, but did not interfere with me running a clearing saw for 3 hours... :P

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/dredwolf1/Accessories/XJ%20Project/IMG_3960_zps08dc888b.jpg

The K3128's are the "computer look-up" recommended upper control arm replacements for the '99 XJ, while the K3166's are for the WJ's, I just looked them up for the first WJ year I could guess.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/dredwolf1/Accessories/XJ%20Project/IMG_3962_zpse786ef3a.jpg

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/dredwolf1/Accessories/XJ%20Project/IMG_3963_zps485c0382.jpg

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/dredwolf1/Accessories/XJ%20Project/IMG_3965_zps2a8cd285.jpg

now it gets interesting...the K3128's...the inner sleeve is actually oversize, with "bumps" in it to center the bolt..

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/dredwolf1/Accessories/XJ%20Project/IMG_3969_zps8ef59ca2.jpg

While the K3166 does not have the hoped-for seamless center bushing, its considerably thicker and a closer tolerance.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/dredwolf1/Accessories/XJ%20Project/IMG_3974_zps119424e3.jpg

A 10mm bolt will fit thru both.

Would the better tolerances on the WJ bushing be an improvement?

[4.3LXJ]

I have found that our bushings do better with English bolts, even though metric will work. 9/16" lowers and 3/8" uppers I believe

[Dredwolf]

I have found that our bushings do better with English bolts, even though metric will work. 9/16" lowers and 3/8" uppers I believe


Fudge, my two sources for grade 8 stuff are not open on Sundays :bang:

Okay, any thoughts on using the WJ bushings? I have not taken a caliper to them yet, but by "eyeball" they are very, very close in outer diameter to the Moog replacements for the XJ.

[4.3LXJ]

I would need to measure with calipers on that one. I do find the metric bolts are a little loose in the sleeves though

[Dredwolf]

I would need to measure with calipers on that one. I do find the metric bolts are a little loose in the sleeves though

I'll check with a dial caliper in the AM, I will be surprised if there is much difference in that outer diameter, then check that inner sleeve fit with the bolts I do have.

[Dredwolf]

Okay, I know there is a chart for the control arm length, which I used. But I am still having issues with the bump stops hitting the coils.

These coils are only supposed to be 4.5" RE coils, which I figured would be fine once I added the winch and bumper, and I adjusted the Iron Man Andy lowers per the chart, but the axle still looks to be too far back.

What am I missing? :confused: Thought I would avoid some of the headaches of a taller lift with the 4.5" one.:bang:

[Dredwolf]

Well, I did something smart, S-M-R-T, smart! :rolleye0012:

I called Andy, and he provided suggested arm lengths based on my RE 4.5" coils of 17" for the lowers and 16.25" for the uppers. :bacondance:

Man, its nice to have a mobile XJ again....:xj-black:

[Dredwolf]

So other than stacking OEM coil spring isolators and spending $$ on the JKS ACOS, whats the best source for smaller front spacers?

I need maybe .75" to 1" of spacer to balance things, unless these RE rear leaves settle a lot in a short time.

[Dredwolf]

So other than stacking OEM coil spring isolators and spending $$ on the JKS ACOS, whats the best source for smaller front spacers?

I need maybe .75" to 1" of spacer to balance things, unless these RE rear leaves settle a lot in a short time.

Apparently my Google-Fu is weak tonight :bang:.....looks like RE has .75 spacers, and even their version of the regular isolators.

[oderdene]

try 4wd here http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Lift-Kits-Jeep-Lift-Kits-Suspension/Jeep-Coil-Spring-Spacers.aspx?t_c=1&t_s=358&t_pt=3448&Year=1995&Make=JEEP&Model=CHEROKEE+%28XJ%29+SPORT#

or you can make one from cutting board like this

http://vstrom.info/vsri-gallery/gallery/d/40626-2/preload_spacer.jpg

http://vstrom.info/vsri-gallery/gallery/d/40682-2/Shock_Spacer2.jpg

[Brasscatz]

Also one of our vendors here ;) http://shop.overrockoffroad.com/75-Inch-Coil-Spring-Spacers_p_52.html

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 because my microwave couldn't do it

[nickyg]

No success there, sun was going down, and my son and I could not get the track bar lined up at the frame to reconnect it.

I had that problem once. I solved it by having a helper turn the steering wheel to kinda force the body into place. Dunno if that applies to your situation or not.

[Dredwolf]

try 4wd here http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Lift-Kits-Jeep-Lift-Kits-Suspension/Jeep-Coil-Spring-Spacers.aspx?t_c=1&t_s=358&t_pt=3448&Year=1995&Make=JEEP&Model=CHEROKEE+%28XJ%29+SPORT#

or you can make one from cutting board like this

http://vstrom.info/vsri-gallery/gallery/d/40626-2/preload_spacer.jpg

http://vstrom.info/vsri-gallery/gallery/d/40682-2/Shock_Spacer2.jpg

Wow, yeah, that would work:shocker:


I think Od is turning into the MacGyver of XJTalk....

macgyvered:
To make do with what is on hand at the moment; to build from scratch with whatever is on hand; to rig.

[Mudderoy]

I had that problem once. I solved it by having a helper turn the steering wheel to kinda force the body into place. Dunno if that applies to your situation or not.

I've learned this the hard way. Fight with it for 30 minutes then think about how I did it in the past. Call someone outside to turn the steering wheel and boom, bolt goes right in. :spongebob: